OK, that’s it. I didn’t get what you meant by bootstrapping, but I get that. Each one is initiating a further spread of that particular approach. There is another interesting approach that is inspired by a mixture of Maclean’s and the Canadian broadcast thing and reality TV.

...not Citizen’s Jury as a public issue thing, but as a jury in trial.

The one point I wanted to mention was, he had gone around Boston asking people if they knew who Edward Snowden was and most of them, at least in his sample, didn’t know. Snowden was really thrown by that, because he’d just totally turned his life upside down in order ...

Yeah, Edward Snowden.

There is actually a funny downside example, where this news comedian from the US who went to Moscow to interview, what’s-his-face?

I would be interested in a survey, a standard public opinion poll, that had to do with to what extent do you know about, value, whatever various parameters of the public participation or the stakeholder participation in the creation of our governance - something that finds out how many people ...

I have a different agenda, which is embedding the vital nature and vital necessity of such processes in the public mind.

You’re thinking of recruiting participants in the process.

Whether the people in g0v, as a movement that’s trying to have an impact, might see proactive coverage by various public media, publicly viewed media, as something to find new ways to do and to actively promote because that will ultimately secure and advance the kind of thing that they’ve ...

That’s the retroactive having proactive efforts. I don’t know, it feels like your work overlaps so much with the g0v world.

Right, and there are branches of that. There is the journalist branch, which is, is it covered by media? Are the things that are going on part of the daily news? In Taiwan, the vTaiwan activities, are they being covered by the daily news? So that most of the population ...

I don’t know. [laughs] I feel like, am I just this old 71-year-old guy who’s talking and stuff but some of these things don’t matter anymore.

I’m not thinking of that, but I’m thinking of like what happened with Maclean’s. Here was a major newspaper, magazine. Every country has their major things, some to a certain extent communities have those things. People get them free or subscribe to them, but they’re different from the live streamed ...

The design is horrible. It’s very often one congressperson will be speaking to an empty hall for their constituents, but not really because it’s anything terribly meaningful. It has a reputation for being really boring and only policy geeks ever watch it.

Yes, I know. Very few people watch C-Span.

That is another layer of public accessibility because people are already engaged with those realms and I think an awful lot of live streaming is either young people who are very tech acclimatized or the geek world. I hardly ever witness live streaming. I’m a different person.

We have 300 different channels, [laughs] but if there is some major ones, here is the major broadcast channel that you don’t have to subscribe to, you get it automatically with your TV. There is like 10 of those. The NBC, ABC, Fox News, those channels have something to go ...

I wasn’t even thinking interactive on this level. I was thinking of, "At four o’clock, Thursday, this interaction between these people will be available on..." I don’t know what your stations are.

Here is a channel that people are...I’m not saying TV channel, although that was true. There is a media channel, through which information is always flowing to people. This thing is now being put out over that channel. Any people who are tuned into that particular channel see it. I’m ...

But the people have to sign into the live stream, have to be the kind of people who are aware of live streams, very different from what happened with Maclean’s and Canadian TV, which was a broadcast.

I’d think putting that as a low level of this high-level thing. The next one is the wide streaming of process, where people can see the raw thing unfolding, in real time, and comment on it. I think you said many times you have chat function accompanying the live streams.

Transparency, right. Transparency is different from, but intimately related to, accessibility. It’s different from and intimately related to public knowledge. There’s a sense of having things posted on a website with it freely available, and how to look at it, anybody who’s interested.

A few things on the way you operate. I alluded to it earlier, the sense that you are definitely for -- what’s the name for it? -- putting everything out there.

The world café went through three rounds, and then there was lunch. There’s no sense of trying to find the answer. There was lunch, and then after lunch, they opened the space. [laughs] I thought that was such a brilliant design. Everybody was all stirred up.

There’s an open space I was part of. The morning of the first five days was a world café, where the question was, "What question, if dealt with here really well, would change everything?" [laughs]

Thank you very much. That makes sense. I love that. That’s another way of creating brilliant questions. I think we discussed this when we talked with Miki. My view is questions point not to a specific answer, but to a space of inquiry. This is questions pointing to a space ...

It usually is a question though. It may have other things, also, but it’s a question. The other things are intended to provoke a little more complex thinking.

That’s a question. Is a tagline basically a question, an inquiry?

Of the whole issue?

What is the tagline?

Oh, could be. [laughs]

Maybe it’s "name and tagline to point out controversial points." I don’t have a transcript yet for the second conversation.

Here we are again. There was one very detailed thing. There was one point, in the last tape I think it was. I think the phrase said, "Name and tech line to point out controversial points." Does that communicate anything? Does that sound like something you would have said that ...

Nice seeing you again.

He has his own things he wants to talk about, too.

So far, right. At nine o’clock, our time, Martin will come on.

To have this kind of process made as invulnerable as possible, and part of becoming invulnerable is being able to constantly change in response to what’s going on. You already had a lot of that that I tremendously admire.

From my perspective, in terms of the importance of this kind of process for...The language I want to have is for the survival of the human race. [laughs] It gets to that level. It’s not just the day-to-day functioning thing. There’s a much bigger thing going on.

You’re handling it really well, and some of the approaches that are... [laughs] There’s some really horrible possibilities that are sitting there, but we don’t have to be preoccupied with that.

That would be very encouraging, except I’m living where the Trump administration is tearing apart the foundations of all the departments’ basic principles, removing people right and left, including career people. There’s many different approaches to handling it.

They’re trying to have stakeholders, per se, identify as a governing force, and self-aware. Stakeholders in one area are, in fact, similar to stakeholders in another area. Collectively, their interests are served by having certain things happening. Their interests are undermined by other things happening. That’s a piece I wanted ...

How much of this is made public, à la the Maclean’s Magazine, whatever, so that the public demands this and would never stand for any president to change it? Also, among stakeholders, I don’t know to what extent there’s...That’s where the ENGI begins to cross over, the Emerging Network Governance ...

I’m very happy to see the kinds of thinking that’s going on there. It occurs to me that the visibility and logic, the narrative that this is a participatory way to bring sanity to governance processes, at all levels, feels like whatever could be done to support that in the ...

In terms of how to protect it, internally by law, is your main strategy at this point, so that it would be very difficult for a new president to...It’s not necessarily impossible, because president traditionally has a majority party support.

The next question, because I watched this elsewhere, if the president is replaced by somebody who is less sympathetic, does this whole thing get wiped out? What’s the resilience in a quasi-democractic scenes we’ve got? What is the vulnerability of v.Taiwan to getting overturned by a replacement?

Downshifting for a moment to the government model. Of people holding these functions, who are currently most supportive of the kind of public and stakeholder engagement perspectives that you represent?

Any links to initiatives or methodologies that you think you’ll be talking about that I should educate myself on to be able to participate on a more generic, rather than just my own past and questions - my familiar territory - would be useful. I’ll try and get up to ...

That’s governance of Pol.is or governance of the...

I will lower in priority the questions that I have on future. That’s future in terms of larger outreach into the larger movement...

It’s not as if I show up, like in these calls, and we talk about whatever. You need to have a structure for...