Really as a poet? That’s the way you see yourself, as a poet?

As a poetician?

Yes, I know we’ve been quite...

I don’t have the same relationship to the Internet that you do. I would be interested to know, why do you think the Internet is so crucial? How do you see it as a political field of action differently than other fields?

No, what I mean is that, for me, what is interesting is getting to understand better how you work with the Internet. How do you see the Internet? This is a field that is, for me, is less known than other technologies, even though, of course, I work with it ...

It is not defined by identity but is defined by having access to a particular technology, a particular language, code, data, or something like that. I don’t know. This is more a question that I have. You have to understand, Audrey, that my field of expertise is really gender technologies, ...

How do you see, for instance, the Internet, or the hacktivist movement as a movement that precisely might be one of the first historically political movements that go beyond identity? It’s not about being man or woman. It’s not about being from a nation. It’s not about being from a ...

For me, it’s more about, in this sense, a kind of transversal alliance between different movements that cannot just be reduced to identity politics. This can be a further conversation, Audrey, in the sense of, for instance, if you see yourself as a part of an identity movement or not ...

This, in the case of transgender people, now is getting better, but it can be worse than that. In the case of people in prison, for instance, have no access at all to any technology of power, any technology of subject production, any technology of knowledge, not to speak about ...

As soon as you say, "I’m gender dysphoric, so therefore I’m sick," somehow, in order to be able to have access to the technologies of gender that I need to become who I think that I am, then I have to accept that I do not have full agency of ...

For instance, how do we represent in a traditional parliament the sick? Let’s take the case of a transsexual. Just to say that if you’re a transsexual, you have to declare yourself mentally ill, from that point on, in a sense, you’re losing your agency. You’re delegating to the state.

It’s more like bringing together support and counter-cultures that are traditionally not represented precisely within the traditional parliament, somehow putting question even what acting politically means.

Two months, 150 programs.

...it can be chemical.

Exactly. It can be data, it can be code...

Yes, but what does it mean to speak? This is exactly what you were talking about before when you were saying programming is another way of speaking. It’s like, "What language are you speaking?" The issue is what is the language of today’s parliament. It might be programming or it ...

Exactly, that have access to the technologies of power.

The root of the word is to talk, but in reality, the idea is that those who are allowed to speak are those that have...

In Europe, it has this connotation of being the political structure that is the base for the constitution of a society.

Meaning like body politics, you say like...

What would be the closest word in English for transitioning in relation to gender? It’s changing or something like that?

What that one mean?

Gender-wise, basically that...

"Transitioning" or "transition" is the same word when it’s being used, for instance, for a trans person, that for something else?

All that is quite easy to translate, I guess, or it’s quite obvious.

On the contrary.

I think it’s going to be like that.

No, go ahead.

What is most radical for you in your way of approaching both the same technologies and society is the Internet as such, or not?

Something that is like... yeah, OK.

So you would only read everything that was written before?

For instance, you’re not criticizing by itself the knowledge regime of the traditional universities?

Exactly. Yes.

Still, let’s say that the platform that you’re creating or that you’re working on doesn’t fully coincide with a traditional university.

I understand, but, for instance, you step out of school and you decided to teach yourself.

That’s why I’m asking how do you see the Internet relating to all of that. For instance, you refused the university.

I thought about using gender transitioning as a trope to think what is happening with democracy. It is not just going from point A to B. It’s a full different ground and a full different language that is also opposing traditional institutions, like this school, the university, and the family.

How do you see the relationship between the Internet and, on one side, state policies, but also institutions, for instance, traditional institutions? Basically, that’s why, when we were thinking about the discussion in a few days, I was talking about democracy and transition.

It’s a different language altogether.

In which language was that learning being done?

You consider the Internet...

Completely by Internet?

Entirely by yourself?

You did it online?

Wow, interesting. In your case, did you study cyber-technologies in the West or here in China, in Taiwan?

Yes, hacktivism, but it’s still...

It’s quite interesting. This distinction doesn’t exist English, as such.

Is there a translation for that?

We’ll have to decide.

Exactly, and gender hacking maybe more. [laughs]