That’s why maybe you have to ask some questions, as a way of introducing both of us with your questions.

For the afternoon talk?

In the morning, we will speak just about the pavilion.

It’s not going to be the same.

Maybe we have to do that through questions. Otherwise, it’s quite strange.

That’s super nice.

I think it’s quite important that, through asking questions and maybe also catching us, interrupting us when you think that we might be going for too long.

You are already a comedian so you don’t need to become one...

Your role is important. Because of the very nature of both of us, we can totally go into crazy things and speak without thinking that we’ll have to go back to the conversation.

I think the role of the moderator is important here.

We’ll speak slowly then.

These are the kind of words that we will be using.

I think it’s going to be it’s already done because this conversation already happened. We will pick it up from here and develop it.

We did the opposite. We’ve been talking...

So funny. How do you see the translation issue? Do you think we will be fine? [laughs]

It’s funny that we’re speaking about all these things while the election is being decided fully.

Just because I’m discussing with you in this case, I’m...

Not to say that I’m very Utopian as well. Utopia is almost like a pathology in my case.

For instance, when working on the project of... Let’s say different people are in prison for different reasons. Most of them are completely outside not for life, all of them, but most of them are completely outside of any possibility of accessing any kind of technology. Of course, not all ...

That is something that, for me, is quite interesting in the sense of those that are radically secluded from having access to the technologies of entering within the algorithm or being able to write their own algorithm.

One of them is not willing...

Exactly.

I fully agree with you in everything that you said. I’m just saying that sometimes, for instance, you work with two opponents that you bring into dialogue or cooperation, but sometimes...

What I’m speaking about is that the contemporary situation, at least in the West -- in the East, I apologize myself because I don’t know it so well -- where we see it is a coming back of fascism. Fascism, in a sense, is the envision to foreclose the code ...

The thing is that, historically, this is the technology of power that we know better. What you’re fighting for and what Jaromil is fighting for, because he’s doing it by similar work than the one that you, but with the city, for instance, it’s precisely like inventing a different technology ...

Exactly. That’s the thing.

What I’m speaking is that, I love your message...

In a sense, yes, if you want, but more extreme than that. This is what colonialism is at the extreme. It’s basically taking you fully outside of the code or rewriting your code, rewriting your grammar.

Those politics have what I call and Achille Mbembe, Foucault, and other people call necropolitics. The relationship that certain technologies have to bodies is a relation of giving death. Basically, abolishing the code [laughs] altogether, not rewriting the code but really writing you out of the code. This has to ...

...and the refugees.

These might be less present for you because you’re here, but now in Europe, we have the highest political crisis regarding what is happening with the migrants that are coming...

The same access to technologies of knowledge is not equal to everyone.

Gutenberg being quite important here. Of course, we’re in the, let’s say, Republic of China, So access to coding is not equal for everyone.

Danger in the sense that...You have to understand, Audrey, you have a very Utopian...

I’m not saying that it’s wrong or right yet. We don’t know.

I think that the risky point of that is that, eventually, this recoding will happen within the body as well.

I’ve seen that the coding that you were speaking about, for instance, when you were speaking about entering within the code and transforming the legislation or the administration codes so you can change the A for the B.

Today maybe, or even in the future, we might be thinking about a prison that has to do with just like having a chip underneath your skin or even like you like a pill forever, and that’s it. [laughs] You take a pill that will go into your system and ...

Exactly. This change is not just accidental. It’s a change in quality. Basically, this is quite clear in with the prisons that we see today. The prisoner is constructed through the physical constraint of his body within a particular building.

No, when I say dematerialize, it’s like saying that it takes a different form. It goes from architecture into chemical technology or that you go from architecture into electronics.

In this case, yes. It’s not dematerialized in the sense of...

One of the things that I’m doing in my work is relating these miniaturization of technologies with...

In a sense, basically to break this relationship. Let’s say the traditional idea heterosexuality, this connection between sexuality and reproduction, is broken, but not through a physical way of controlling someone, but just with a chemical pill.

For instance, I haven’t studied that, in relation to hormones and how basically the invention of the pill in the 1950s changed completely the relationship between sexuality and reproduction.

You had to be physically surveilled in a certain architecture. What is happening through the invention of the Internet is precisely that this architecture is dematerialize. The technology of surveillance is installed within you.

When we started working, one of the issues that we had in mind that has been present in my work before, is how, because of this change of paradigm that has to do with the Internet, in order for a body to become the subject of control in politics, the ...

Instead of saying, like the big question in philosophy, "What is freedom? Am I free?" what you’re saying is, "Forget about this question. The question is how can I access certain technologies that would allow for me to re-appropriate this for that and become active within that context?" This is ...

For me, this is already a way of giving access to those technologies, just show how they work. You’re not asking, "What is freedom?" but, "How can you use it?" right?

Which is the opposite that both the market and sometimes art are really concealing these surveillance technologies. You don’t have to see them. What you’re doing is really unpacking them and revealing them, exposing them.

Yes, revealing how the surveillance system works and giving access to those technologies. This is something that you were doing in your work, which is basically about transparency, what Audrey is always talking about.