There is a point that we were speaking about today with your designers, which was revealing how...

[laughs].

Cypherpunks?

Six-meter, the one that we saw yesterday. Yeah, six-meter for eight people.

Eight people or something like that.

Mm-hmm.

For me, that’s quite interesting, the position of the artist in relation to that, as opposed to the scientist, the physician, or whatever.

Exactly.

Something similar is happening when you are saying it’s not just about like these two people, "Who is right and who is wrong?" but something else. Out of these cooperations, something...

I think that what Audrey’s trying to say is, "No, the code has to be constantly rewritten." For me, this has also to do with both forking and transitioning. For instance, in the case of gender transitioning, it’s not just like going from female into male, or male into female, ...

Therefore, opposing the idea that the code is the law, that you can only do it when you say that you’re an artist, if you say that you’re a full politician or you’re a full scientist, then you put yourself on the side of the law, on the side of ...

Exactly. If I understand you well, and to answer Shu Lea with the question of the code, the idea here is that the code can always be rewritten. It has to be constantly and collectively rewritten.

Exactly. This is something that is common with me. For instance, I opposed science as precisely that...

What I find interesting is that, for instance, Audrey’s not saying, "I’m a scientist."

Exactly. I think that this relates to the question of the code and the algorithm. I somehow like the way you spoke about the code. You were saying that you are like writing poems. I think this interesting because placing yourself in the position of "the artist in relation to ...

When I was saying "transition" in myself, I was thinking both about a change of paradigm, which is not just like moving from point 1 to point B, but something is shifting.

If you would speak more about forking democracy, about that part.

For me, it was important to get to understand.

It’s already beyond your access.

Exactly. Maybe you have questions for us.

I understand.

If I understand well, what you’re doing is translating discussions about nationality, gender, sexuality, whatever, identity into code.

How could you react to that? What are the policies in Taiwan in relation to migration?

Let’s say that in Europe now you have a very strong policy in most parties claiming for closing the border fully to migrants. What would you do in relation? This is a question for me to get to understand the methodology, how you’re working, as opposed to traditional antagonistic politics ...

Issues that are now splitting not just countries and polities, but everyone, including within the feminist movement, queer movement, or whatever, like issues that had to do with migration, how could you deal with that?

Then what do you do with very controversial issues? I’m thinking more about the Western politics that I know better than Taiwan.

What would you do then with the actual political system in terms of parties and the whole thing? What would you do with it?

At the end, what you’re promoting is the end of the Parliament as we know it and the end of parties as well.

You can?

I know, but you cannot support two people that are fighting for opposite...

Interesting. [laughs] I have to think about it. In a sense, in the West, when we are within that radical left tradition, we’re more used to work in a kind of antagonistic politics. We’re always fighting for something.

In a sense, you don’t mind who’s winning tonight? You don’t care?

No? It’s just you’re bringing forward this methodology?

Yeah. What I see is like a methodology that you made, in a sense proposing a methodology for a cooperation. Are there issues in terms of content that you were fighting for in particular?

Four years.

How has been that experience? After these, let’s say, three years and a half of mentoring?

You think that after these 22 days of occupation there were changes?

Why the medical? I couldn’t understand why.

After this period, now you’ve been working with this government for last three years.

All of them were part of NGOs or not?

Basically, all the people that you gathered, let’s say, even it was through the Internet...

The government might not be so interested that anyone is precisely doing that so why would be you called as part of the government? I have difficulties, but maybe it’s because I don’t know example.

Totally, but still I don’t really see quite well how this can be part of a government action. This is what, for me, is difficult. Of course, I see you more in a sense, like undoing the code, undoing the law, or rewriting the law somehow.

I really liked the idea of thinking about poetry, of what you do as poetry. I think it’s great.

OK. Before, I was thinking about you more as a politician, but now I see you more as an artist.

Now, I’m getting to understand that you defined yourself as an artist in reality.

[laughs] Which is not valid.

Do you see each of these statements, let’s say, as a poem?

[laughs] OK.

Sorry to ask, but what do you mean by writing poems?