Of course.

...so I don’t really think of it as a subject.

I always study other places. I just live here [laughs] ...

I’m trying to think. It’s funny, because I never intentionally study Toronto.

I feel bad...

I’m excited for you guys. I’m sorry I can’t attend. I won’t be able to.

I haven’t really heard much about that here.

Yeah, MDGs.

Someone else in another situation might not feel the same as I do...We also have increasing crime, increasing homelessness. [laughs] Definitely, bigger social issues are not being solved. People are turning a blind eye, but you know when you get desensitized because you see it all the time?

Also, that’s my perspective [laughs] as someone living Downtown Toronto, this age bracket, 30, and I have a job.

You’ll find similar issues that all cities face.

That’s something that’s good. [laughs] Another good thing.

Yeah, it’s cold here. It’s just a very long skating rink that you.

There’s that, and they made it into a skating rink.

Yeah, it’s public property. She helped revamp these spaces so they could be used by the public. Now, several different underpasses display artwork. It’s not really graffiti. When you walk around Toronto, you’ll see there’s a lot of street art now that is very well done.

For sure. Another thing that has been a shining light for Toronto recently is the chief city planner, Jennifer Keesmaat, she recently ran for mayor. She was a leading force. We have a lot of wasted areas that are not very pedestrian-friendly. It’s a lot of places under the highways. ...

I know that they publish open data. Like you said, Taiwan has the budget publicized. But to be honest, I’m not sure how many people look at this data, [laughs] just things like that.

Our previous mayor had a lot of issues, [laughs] corruption and those kinds of issues. That accountability from the city, or even all levels of government, that’s still something we can all work on.

The changes are exciting. There’s definitely still a lot of tension. All cities have these kinds of tension, like public transport is still bad. Those kinds of things can always get better.

How it’s changing.

That being said, more and more, Toronto is being more of a hub.

Our biggest success in the last five years is Shopify. It was very important that they chose to stay in Canada. Slack was a Canadians start-up as well, but they moved to San Francisco. [laughs] I think a lot of Canadians understand you have to move to San Francisco, because ...

I think there’s more tech opportunities in Toronto now.

Yeah, I can see that. My whole family immigrated, so I definitely see that. In the Canadian brain drain, our top programming talent completes co-ops in San Francisco. It’s very hard to compete with [laughs] the Facebook or those kinds of...

...which I think Taiwan definitely has.

I don’t know if you know this, but Canada deals with, historically, with what we call "brain drain"...

Toronto’s becoming more and more a destination for tech people.

I think they wanted a city that’s a good size. Sidewalk Labs is based in New York, so it’s also very close for them. Also, it’s important that government is very cooperative. They’re very much looking forward to that.

They’re building a smart city from scratch on the east end of the city. Right now, no one lives there. It’s not used.

I think it’s critical. [laughs] At the city level, it’s not really about political values as much. It’s more about improving the city. I don’t know if you guys have seen any Toronto news, but we won this bid for Smart City with the Alphabet Group’s Sidewalk Labs.

It’s more democratic.

They’re a lot more extreme than we are. [laughs] We have a lot more taxation here. I think, as a Canadian, our upbringing encourages fundamentally different values. You understand that the taxation is for the greater good. It’s more European.

Honestly, if you put it US and Canada on a spectrum, Canadian beliefs lean a lot more left. We lean a lot more socialist. Even our Conservative party, which is more about cutting taxes and capitalism, [laughs] it’s still more on the Democratic side for the US. I’m not sure ...

I believe US and Canadian politics are different. In the US, you tend to vote for the individual candidate. Here in Canada, we vote for the party.

The group in Toronto’s very new. Our current mayor used to run a business, so he brought a lot of change to Toronto. He started the first civic innovation group in the mayor’s office. This team is only maybe two years old.

In Toronto?

It’s OK. [laughs] I’ll remind you.

I love service design.

I can take them around if they’re bored. [laughs]

Some of them stay in Toronto?

Really? It’s all relative. Here, my Chinese is good, but not in Taiwan.

Yes, I need to meet this person.

Oh, my gosh, OK.

Oh, my gosh. Welcome to Canada.

Oh, you’re going to love Ottawa.

I wasn’t going to Ottawa, but it’s not hard to get there, because we have a train system. You came from Ottawa, right?

Oh, Ottawa? No, actually, I wasn’t going to Ottawa. I was going to see you guys. That’s why.

I’ll pass my...

No, it’s fine.

I think the more that you can find people all over the world who feel the same way, you realize you’re not alone. [laughs] You’re not crazy.