No, thank you, as well.

…your time.

Thank you so much for…

…there is always some.

Of course, yeah, I’d be happy to…Especially if these things develop. If we do need to schedule another interview…

…a future of Internet.

I know that this can be a very…

That too, even though…I know there’s a flag of convenience database which that is also a thing that can…

The main concern is not necessarily privacy, it’s more so that many of these vessels are breaking the law or…

…there’s been things for the major seafood traders and for vessel owners, and captains. The main drawback to embracing technology for things like traceability or just logging your foreign crew, and making sure that they have accept that they are able to as they do in Thailand, they can anonymously ...

Of course. In the fishing industries, specifically in this…

…I’m sure that there are fears. I know there are fears amongst the other ministries here, that Taiwan is also facing similar scrutiny.

That’s right. Right at the same thought where it’s possible to track their systems, but not to keep their data secure. We’ve seen other…I’m not sure exactly how Thailand has done with securing data, but they have managed to get much of their fleet, pretty much their entire fleet. They’ve ...

Right, and we’ve seen some things like for instance, the fishing industry, many of its, there have been…There’s lots of some clouds over ownership of vessels, over captains and brokers, who have been convicted of human trafficking and continue to work.

I know that conversation has gained a bit more attraction in Taiwan lately. Since you have been working to open government data to just digitize things, I’d like to ask about Taiwan’s current…Its current policies and data keeping as well, on foreign workers from Southeast Asia in Taiwan?

I see.

Oh, wow. They’re…

Oh, really?

I’m very curious about your thoughts about this. We’ve seen in the US the Black Lives Matter movement is drawing global attention even here in Taiwan to systemic discrimination and racism in society. There’s just a Black Lives Matter rally…

If I can leave you with one last question.

Something I want to ask. I’m trying to check the time. I don’t know if we’ve been too long.

I know in many cases they are looking for knowledge, not just for their own movement, but they’re engaging globally. This is something that we may start seeing with protesters in other countries.

Of course. We have seen protesters, people who are engaged in the pro-democracy movement there come here and immediately engage in Taiwan civic society. They’ve been going to observe your elections. I think even in the Kaohsiung recall election, a group of Hongkongers went there.

That’s right.

That’s right, and it’s ongoing. I know that. Of course, we both came last year and he has said in the past that he encourages more Hongkongers to come if they can. I know that there’s an ongoing policy debate.

Right, of course. What are your immediate thoughts when you’ve seen people from Hong Kong come here to Taiwan, of course.

I know that it’s part of the societal fabric to think about the consequences of something like this. I just wonder, as you’re witnessing these potential turns into a more authoritarian state in countries around the world, what your thoughts are about. Sometimes, it’s not immediately possible to resist this, ...

That’s right, and that will lead to future consequences that are not going to turn back. Of course, Taiwan has its own history and has very rapidly come out of this period of martial law.

In much of the world, there is a concern about turns into authoritarianism, that we’ve even had some countries that openly flirt with the idea of martial law or just a police and military that take measures that many people fear will end up chipping away at their rights.

I’m very curious what you may think when you see the protests happening in the US, which have so many different potential motives. Of course, there are core motives, but also, they are protesting. I just wonder what you think as far as how you would advice someone how to ...

Especially now we’re seeing an unprecedented in many places backlash toward not just the role of states, but also the structural models of society in a place like the US, there is civic energy to demand many changes but also to make many changes.

Absolutely. As you said, that’s why the Taiwan model within Taiwan, it doesn’t have to be idealistic, but once again, if you are hearing about this and thinking of implementing something similar in your own society, in many other countries in the world, it probably does sound a little bit ...

That’s very true. Did you feel, and as we’re going forward now…? Once again, this trust is very strong. Once again, a lot of times there are ways for Taiwan to export this either through material means or just ideologically. A lot of times, though, I think there may be ...

At that time, the Thai administration did not have approval ratings that are quite as high as it does now. I think there was a greater bit of societal push back.

Do you think that there are any lessons that Taiwan took away from those debates, which at times, if we go back to in 2018, there were quite a few proposals to institute harsher fines, harsher penalties against disinformation.

We also saw that there were some summons handed out to people who had made potentially false social media posts that came from police. There was quite bit of pushback about this. Once again, though, that ended up being contained in a certain sector. It didn’t lead to a break ...

Of course. I know that you do not like to use the term fake news, but that term did get thrown around at times. There was also…

Going back to Taiwan’s history with disinformation, of course, last year there was some debate over how to institute penalties for people who were spreading disinformation.

Right, and a place where civil society is in the role of the protesters rather than a stakeholder. That’s something that could be replicated.

This is something where it’s…

Right, and to be specific in a case like this, there is no government involvement, right?

At the same time, some of the initiatives that Taiwan reaches out, as you mentioned earlier, these are things that could be adopted at the societal level, but do you have conversations with them? If so, what would you say as far as creating an environment where reliable information on ...

You’ve been involved in so many civic tech communities around the world that are very decentralized. A lot of them – I think of, once again, places like the Philippines, Indonesia – right now, both of them are in the midst of quite serious outbreaks. There’s also a very substantial ...

I think once again, we hear Minister Chen, Premier Su, and many others, there have been people in government who were willing to be civil, deferential, as you said, sometimes even be the butt of jokes. That certainly played a huge role in gaining trust and keeping that trust.

How would you describe what society said at that time? It almost felt like we’re saying, “We trust you with this but don’t step over the line.”

In Taiwan, it fascinated a lot of observers that despite those initial concerns, there was never…and certainly it’s always struck me as a society that’s very concerned with privacy. Concerned with upholding constitutional rights.

The fascinating thing – and at that time I was in the Philippines and they declared a state of emergency – I would say they have had a different approach to countering disinformation.

I know that when those prospective penalties were announced, and this was early on, this was, I’m forgetting the exact date but there was more conversation in the month of February where there was also some concern from people who had privacy concerns, especially academics, that some people who had ...

Yeah.

Sock puppets, right.