But even this. You look at this. It’s puppets. It’s motion capture and then there’s a thin wrap of pixels on top of it. All of this now would be done by volumetrically, like with a volumetric scanner. Sorry, not volumetric scanner but with videogrammetry. Same thing, basically.

Yeah. I honestly think that Steam may be the best way to get it if they put it up there yet. I think that they must have because that was an Al Jazeera commission and I would assume that they want to get it out there in any way that ...

Do you want to log into Squarespace?

I think that that may actually be available on Steam. I’m not sure.

You should be able to find it. Emblematic Group, yeah. [pointing at a Formula 1 VR experience on the screen] That’s a commercial experience. "Use of Force," is a project that was at Tribeca. She produces a lot. "Kiya" is the one on the right.

Which is very up your alley, I feel like after reading that piece. It’s Emblematic Media, I believe. I don’t even know what it is now.

...her company now is called Emblematic.

Actually, you know what? I would say, instead of going to Immersivejournalism.com, because she’s in the process of closing this one out...

Exactly. She has a very specific methodology with a very specific journalistic ethic behind it. She’ll do recordings, field recordings, or use existing news footage to recreate events. The piece of hers that I think is the most powerful for me is the piece called "Kiya," that’s about a domestic ...

Yeah, it’s been pretty amazing to see her life change in the past three years as this has become more and more of a mainstream technology.

When my partner Eline and I, we won an award called the Tim Hetherington Visionary Award that allowed us to basically choose a mentor for the first VR project that we ever made, we chose her because she held her breath for so long and stuck there while nobody was ...

Yeah, so she’s done a lot with this as well, this ghosting effect which is also in her piece, "Project Syria."

The cross on the head is the sensor that’s placing you within the virtual context.

There was no hand‑capture device. The hand is in the pocket. What it’s actually doing...See the cross on the head is what’s...I’m sure...Right? Get it?

Her intern was a guy named Palmer Luckey [laughs] who was just somebody who was really into playing with phones in his garage. He helped to build the first system that was not using military technology to make this piece available to people at Sundance.

She essentially created this walk around volumetric virtual reality system that could put people into this situation. Obviously it’s made in Unity. Those pixels are quite blocky at this point, but it was very effective at the time. People bursting into tears when they take off the headsets or what ...

This is modeled after an incident that one of her researchers went out and recorded at a soup kitchen in Los Angeles where someone went into diabetic shock while waiting for their food. Because hunger in Los Angeles is a real problem, she wanted to figure out a way to ...

This piece was in many ways the beginning of virtual reality as we know it, because she had to figure out how to show this at Sundance. Originally, she was using some like military‑grade virtual reality helmet. This is outside a...it’s modeled after a...How do I put this? Sorry. I ...

Then Nonny de la Peña is...Yeah, there you go. I think she got rid of Immersive Journalism. She has a slightly more updated website. By "slightly more updated," I mean a Squarespace website. [laughs]

No, "s."

Yeah, so if you look up Nonny de la Peña...

It’s called "Hunger in Los Angeles."

It was academic analysis of Second Life, so it makes a lot of sense...

That’s so interesting. One of my mentors is Nonny de la Peña, who’s a VR journalist, basically, one of the first adopters of the Vive and also one of the first people to bring, or I think the first person to bring virtual reality to film festivals. One of the ...

That’s you?

...that’s been a bit of a stumbling block because I think at this point, we’re still on the rollercoaster.

Trying to explain to people like that’s the reason behind Facebook’s acquisition of Oculus...

I didn’t know this one.

But he was like, "I was in there for 21 hours."

I can’t remember.

I talked to this guy who was a VR journalist about his time in social VR when he was interviewing me and my wife. We asked him how long he had stayed inside the platform. I can’t remember which one it was. It was like, "I was in there for..."

There’s a real investment and involvement with this virtual space, probably social virtual space.

Which made me think just about how the medium is asking to be more and more interactive and more and more immersive. Then in a way, when I started out doing 360 video, there’s a time when that’s just going to be gone when videogrammetry replaces it. Everything’s going that ...

It’s interesting because I was showing a 360 video yesterday HTC in a Vive and someone had left the controller out, so the ghost of the controller was living inside of 360 video like I kept turning over and I would see the controller in my field of view.

Sure.

OK.