Exactly.

So how can you actually build up something in a space that also in Taiwan is already carved out, right? Most of the people are on Facebook and it is quite partisan and quite heated discussion.

And how do you, because you often speak also about that in the digital sphere you need to have something like town halls and meeting rooms. And this is, I mean, this is the big problem about polarization and filter bubbles and so on.

But do you generally have a problem with fatigue in democracy or is this nothing that troubles Taiwan?

So did you have a big bracket of society that was really anti-vax or refused that? Because this is what happened in Germany, for example. I think we were, I mean, as you know, Russian disinformation is very strong in Germany. And they actually sponsor a lot of French groups. ...

So it’s not a government official who answers the phone, but somebody from civil society.

Like on a practical, could you explain on a practical level how that works? So people have the information.

So it means you’re just kind of creating a different narrative. So you’re using the collective intelligence.

A super guinea pig. (laughter)

They were so strong in Germany.

We had them all.

Often they are so wild that you can’t, I mean, it doesn’t really, even if you say this is not true, people will think you say it’s not true because you’re part of the circle, blah, blah, blah. So how can you actually counter these?

How is it..because we also talked to Puma Shen, and he said he’s not really troubled about fake news, because that’s easy, but he’s really troubled about conspiracy theories, because there’s not really something you can do about it.

How does that work on a practical level? For example, I access WeChat, for example, I see there’s fake information, what do I do? I’m a journalist, do I have a special forum or post?

Oh yes. That could still happen. What else did you learn from Ukraine?

And these are all steps you actually took as a lesson from the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

And you’re also developing LEO, right? Low Earth Orbiting.

But what are your plans so far? Like they also told me that they might even… because right now I think Taiwan is using some channels on a Singaporean satellite.So if the Chinese attack it, they will actually attack a Singaporean one and a Taiwanese one?

There is one… I’ve just been to INDSR, and you spoke as well about the satellite, about Starlink 2.0, and the question how to actually prevent that the underground cables will be cut, even if it’s highly improbable that all of them will be cut because they’re international also.

And would that be possible to connect the whole Taiwanese system to this system?

And could you do that permanently or would that be something like that is quite temporary?

Unfortunately, I was just here for three months. Too short.

You work intensively with Ukraine on digital resilience and education. Can you please tell us more about this cooperation?

Thank you very much indeed for your time.

When you visit capitals, like London and elsewhere, are you reassured by the words that you hear? From other ministers, from senior civil servants, about should you need the West, should there be some kind of conflict?

That brings us back to where we started this conversation.

Is that silicon shield still intact, is it still your kind of trump card, if you like, should Beijing decide to try to take the island by force?

Because there has been what some people have called the silicon shield. This idea that Taiwan is so vital to the modern global economy because of its computer chips, that democracies would be compelled to come to Taiwan’s aid, if China did invade.

You’re saying these Taiwanese chip factories in other parts of the world don’t in any way really hit the business model of Taiwan?

They’re bluntly concerned, aren’t they, that if China does invade Taiwan, they won’t get their computer chips from Taiwan. Surely this attempt to reduce risk in their supply of computer chips undermines, undercuts Taiwan, the island’s competitiveness, economically and internationally?

TSMC, the biggest computer chip maker in Taiwan has opened a manufacturing plant in the United States; others are planned there and in other parts of the world. And that is because governments want to ensure that they have a steady, reliable supply of computer chips.

We were talking about Taiwan’s computer chip industry earlier on. How is it faring in the face of the tensions between Beijing and Taipei?

Are you also kind of battling with a kind of island-wide firewall trying to stop manipulated videos or whatever else coming in onto people’s phones or their computers?

Is Taiwan being targeted in any way by China using artificial intelligence, whether it be deep fakes or whatever else?

The global agreements on artificial intelligence would clearly have to involve China; do you think it is likely that there would be a big overarching global agreement between democratic nations and the likes of China? And also Russia, which, of course, at the moment is not on very good terms ...

Do you think that Taiwan, as a massive maker of computer chips which have enabled Artificial intelligence, has a particular responsibility to ensure that it sets standards so that Taiwanese companies don’t put us at risk?

What is the reality? What do you think is the likelihood of a global deal being done, where countries agree on what the limits are, so that technology companies, frankly, don’t put us all at risk?

So, what needs to happen? You’re saying various measures need to be put in place. But artificial intelligence is here today, and is presumably out there doing real harm to some people, albeit on a different, low-level, local scale; there is the risk that it could do harm at a ...

What measures need to be put in place then, to ensure that people do trust artificial intelligence products? Because at the moment, if you use one of the many AI chatbots out there, they do regularly spout complete rubbish. They make things up.

Well, I should reassure our listener that we are sitting next to each other in a room. I’m not talking to a synthesized voice of Audrey Tang.

You recently put your name to a letter, as did many people in the world of technology, saying that there need to be safeguards in place to ensure that artificial intelligence bluntly doesn’t kill off humanity. How likely is that, no matter how small a risk it may be?

What do you think the dangers are of artificial intelligence?

Do you read it before it goes out?

What are the dangers of artificial intelligence? On the email point, you’re a minister, and your AI system surely could go haywire and could give out a directive which your staff would follow, but which you may not actually want your AI system to issue?

That’s fascinating. You’re a minister. You’re also very techie, as our listeners would have just gathered from that answer. You trust artificial intelligence to write emails on your behalf?

What do you think AI is going to do to the way we live our lives? How big an impact is it going to have?

But on artificial intelligence, it has become a reality largely because of the computer chips developed in Taiwan.

When you talk about the subsea data cables being cut, that clearly raises the specter of the tensions between China and Taiwan, and I want to come back to them later on in our conversation, if we may.

Tell us about your visit to the UK. What are you hoping to achieve here?

First of all, would you please introduce yourself?