We should do a picture.

Thank you so much.

Same email, yes. OK.

I can CC you. I have your email.

Maybe if I approach some entities, I can…

It was really a pleasure to get access to you and to your views. As I mentioned, 9DashLine is really trying to do more to connect Europe with Asia. I was wondering if you can refer me to any entity here in Taiwan in the civil sector that I could ...

I think we’ve covered most things. Thank you so much.

Then the reaction is, OK, our economy will suffer, but that’s not the priority. The Taiwanese priority has always been to protect human health.

But it’s so difficult to break away from that, because they will say, OK, we have a lockdown in many European countries now.

That’s very interesting. Also, what I find fascinating is, in Europe, the debate about what to do about COVID-19 or the pandemic is it’s the economy or human…

In light of the growing US-China tension, how realistic do you think the prospect that Taiwan could define its future for itself? How realistic do you see this? How can Europe help? Maybe that could be our last question.

Other than the more tangible elements about the data, and how exactly Taiwan is doing to fight the pandemic, but a more abstract but very important element would be this empowering the social sector.

Like a conclusion to everything you said.

Then I would say that part of the Taiwan model as a core element is empowering the social sector.

Yeah.

What is the biggest challenge to switching to this new reality?

You see challenges to it because of the…or do you see more opportunity, of course, with the pandemic unfolding?

We discussed about what Europe can learn from the response. Oh, yes, how about Taiwan’s soft power as a concept? How do you see that concept in the post-pandemic world?

I don’t want to overstay my welcome here.

I’m just being mindful of the time. I’m checking.

I think this is another point that is crucial in the Taiwan model, to really explain in an open and transparent way and to communicate. Having daily press conferences, as Taiwan has had for months, that was not the case in Europe. It’s another very important element to pick out ...

It really comes down to explaining the people that what you are doing is transparent and open, and the data management is not revolutionary different. It’s actually the same.

Yes, of course. They think that the geolocation with the app, they download the app. But already, as you said, the telecom companies already have data…

In Europe, people don’t…they really fear about their data being misused by the government.

One side of the coin is government trusting citizens. The other side is citizens trusting the government. This side in Europe, as I said, is very low. In Taiwan, it is very high.

With this, of course, I think we need to look deeper in why we have such a…

I have an issue with Europeans being so…even today, even after all these months of dealing with the pandemic, still not wanting to wear a mask. They’re still taking that as something that violates their personal freedom, like in the United States.

Yes, the Command Center. I’ve a very good example when I go back to Europe to say that it works, because first of all, I could come to Taiwan in spite of what is happening. I was closely monitored, and I had no problem with that, because it was for ...

That’s why you have a central epidemic control…

And you’ve learned?

Hmm.

People are just completely distrustful of the authorities, because they said that they don’t have a plan, that it’s a complete failure. We don’t have the experience of SARS as some Asian countries have had and learned from. Maybe this is our SARS.

Not only because of the failure of COVID response, I think in Belgium. It is very sad to see how fragmented the country is. As a given, it is a federal state. This is not the sad part of the story. The complexity of it means that you have different ...

Thank you, thank you. I like it how you say you trust the citizens, because in Europe, you always say trust the government. We don’t talk about how the government trusts its citizens. We always talk about not trusting the government.

Especially as we just discussed this infodemic, fighting the infodemic, not just the virus, as such, but the information given China’s implications of influence in Europe. Maybe we can tweet about this after.

I like that. I like that term. I would be so appreciative if you could maybe bring more Europe in the discussion.

For that reason, I think this is the moment that we push from a European perspective. I hope that whatever Europeans do on the ground such as myself to give more visibility, I would love it if we could maybe think about this in the future, how we could…Your voice ...

We understand that the United States is Taiwan’s number one and most important ally. We also are happy to see that President Tsai’s ambition, aspiration and not only but in real terms, the administration is looking at reinforcing ties with South East Asian countries in the New Southbound Policy. We ...

After the Chinese leadership really sent all the help to Italy, and they tried to prove that it is not democratic governance that can successfully fight the virus, but it is their strong, authoritarian response. This is why we also say that China is a systemic rival. They try to ...

Yeah. You also use the infodemic term. The High Representative, Josep Borrell, he was quite vocal on the need to fight against disinformation. You are familiar with the battle on narratives.

The next piece that I write while I am here should be to elaborate a little bit more on this. I think in Europe, people don’t really understand, just simply, they don’t know how much and in what ways Taiwan, in that collaborative approach between the government and civil society ...

Of course.

I don’t know how it is in Taiwan in the public mind, in the public mind of the people on the street, whether they really understand the nuances of disinformation and the implications. I think in Europe, this is not yet clear.

Now that I’m inspired by your views on the misinformation, disinformation, countering that, how we should work more closely together on that front, I think that’s one very good element. Also, the trust, as you described the…The people feel that it’s not the government that it’s fact-checking, but it’s government ...

This was seen as a revolutionary approach, because never before have we said that China is also the major source. About Russia, we’ve said that before. Our relations with Russia and China are different for obvious reasons. The proximity, the Baltic States and Poland feel Russia’s breathing on their neck ...

No, no, no, but that’s what I’m trying to say, that exactly as you point out, that this element is at the core of the Taiwan model, and we are natural partners. On the European side, because we’ve already opened, we said that Russia and China are the biggest source ...

This is really interesting, because where I struggle most is when people ask me, oh, so you’re saying Europe and Taiwan should cooperate in what, how? Give us exactly your suggestions, because Europe and China relations, it’s business as usual. European countries do not want to engage openly with Taiwan, ...

That would be an interesting and innovative idea. Short term, medium term, long term. People to people, beyond health, all these elements.

At the EU…

How would you assess our approach to Taiwan at the moment as an European approach, knowing that the European Union is not a country but 27 countries, and it’s much more difficult to work with, much more complex? Where do you see that we could work closer together?