And they didn’t have Wi-Fi.

Yes.

Yes, so they are far to have…

It was really good to talk to them. And they were all like, “Wi-Fi, yes!” It was very beautiful, really, and they were very happy that this campaign is happening. So I just want to say to you that… um…

I’m sure we can make that happen. Most of the time we are with the workers. We have many, I mean, we met with two of the… basically, FOSPI has 12 different subgroups that are based on regions, and we met with two of them, folks that had just come ...

I mean, Wi-Fi is helping us have more participation in democracy. Also, that the industry sees it as an added value rather than as a threat to get them to normalize this, I think, again, it’s helpful because I think brands and consumers want to do the right thing, and ...

This is why I love this conversation because we need to make it not up here, we really need to make it so the workers themselves with captains really set a new tone for relationships. This communication is allowing for all that.

Yeah, that would be great. Right now, I think it’s really facilitating us talking to the industry and understanding the industry needs and understanding the workers’ needs, the agreements that go with the real… how does it look like at the vessel level.

Well, with the FA’s blessing, of course.

Digital rights.

That’s very helpful. Thank you.

That’s great. Very powerful. Politically, we are thinking about who else we should talk to that could help with the expectations, flexibility, funding, anything else. Any suggestions?

We as campaigners will try to make sure that this is something that gets rewarded. But we need to be able to say this is the differentiation. So this is great.

And I think Yi-hsiang was right. It’s like if Taiwan can be at the cutting edge of that, then that market becomes the market that brands will have to think about extending and sourcing from rather than spaces where we hold at release orders or things like that, where we ...

And also we’re talking about sustainability problems. I mean right now, because of climate change, because of IUU illegal fishing, all those things are becoming a trend. I mean I don’t think that’s not going to continue to move in that direction.

But at the same time there are different ways in which you can communicate to the outside. I like that. It’s like this can even be like this and that. So there is no way that people cannot be connected, and those are the things I also think the government ...

And the whistleblower right now, I think it does become a very important part of the IUU side. I mean the fact that today, there was something on Taiwan being equated with China. I mean that’s the title of the news right now. It’s like this all could help. I’m ...

I like that a lot. Because it does cover our worry about freedom of association. It also depends on the will of good or disreputable vessel owners and management.

Yes, you just go YouTube or satellite phone.

Wow.

Then to me, it’s not one or the other, but this we should think through, because FOSPI would be the one that could maybe be the owner or something like that. So, the question to me is, it’s not enough.

But I would love to explore what this means in the long term. Because it’s not one or the other. The question is, can we do it? So there is some regulation in which, okay, employers are required, but also the workers themselves could have their own pathway to controlling ...

In this thing, we’re saying Wi-Fi worker groups that are in charge of implementing their side, rules and responsibilities of how to add Wi-Fi. Ideally, one of them, two of them, could be trained how to actually hold their own piece. It doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t be retaliated against, ...

I agree that it’s a learning process, but we’re asking for the capacity for workers to organize at vessel level, and we’re talking about implementing,

How would that work then? Because that sounds great. What would that look like technically? I think she has already talked about this.

Yes.

But it’s a process. And in the meantime, every day, there is the danger of not knowing what we don’t know, and that’s the question of the mandatory. We don’t know what we don’t know until we have transparency.

So the question is how to keep increasing the capacity and the resources until we can go to the brands to make sure that also the brands pay, and that’s our job internationally: to move up and say, this is not just a Taiwanese government problem, this is you benefiting ...

Fishers are a group that is in the news. I think that Netflix, number one thing right now. In Taiwan, it’s about fishers as well. So this is something that we all want to fix. I think the industry is committed. I think the Premier is committed. We are committed.

So I think our question too is, what do you think now? Do you consider it? Are you thinking about it?

Because you talked about subsidies. you talked about the inclusion of fishers in these communities that are, I don’t know how to say it, disconnected or vulnerable to that isolation, or do not have access to the digital rights.

And you have talked about the idea that not only should they have digital rights, but also the right to access mental health care, digitally or virtually. That is also something that we would like for hopefully your department, your ministry, to think about that extension of rights, and then ...

The same thing goes for Stella Maris and FOSPI. The idea that some fishers become extremely depressed, for us, is something that is also important, the mental health aspect of the isolation, and not receiving news, and when you do receive it, it’s horribly bad because you haven’t talked to ...

If you are out 10 months or 15 months out at sea, you don’t have access to healthcare. Period. There is not a nurse, there is not a doctor, and you cannot even speak out. So when we talked to the agencies in Indonesia, agencies that hire them said, “We ...

For us, that’s part of the discussion. It’s like, you know, there are apps that people want to use. There are all sorts of, you know, we talked about mental health a lot, I think the last time we visited you, about the access to healthcare online.

It’s step by step, and there is no retaliation, and everybody knows the rules, and everybody is trained. I mean, even if the workers could even be trained to help with IUU and illegal fishing. The workers can be so much part of a solution once they have rights, once ...

We really think that it’s very hard to put the burden on the workers to have the satellite, I think. Maybe not. Because either way, we are trying to get an agreement on the vessel, that they can use it when it’s safe. Health and safety first. How they use ...

Once there is clarity, and once the owners can actually purchase it, it would be great if there was also an effort by the industry and the government to try to get wholesale, to try to figure out if they can make it more affordable.

You clever man, you clever man.

So what do you think? [laughter]

But this is the technology that has the most data. So this is why I think the question is fair, because they want to do the right thing. They just don’t have clarity if they would be permitted as the vessel owners from Taiwan.

Also, we would love to have video conferences with all the fishers everywhere all at once. But we understand that that’s limited.

It doesn’t matter. The point is out in the middle of the ocean, that’s where they would want to have access to this technology and brand because of the affordability but also because of the bundles. It’s unlimited data. It means that there is more capacity for more people to ...

I think the question is what’s permitted. The vessel owner was worried, like, what is the permissible line? The majority of these workers are in the middle of Fiji or Uruguay. Once they hit close to the coast of Taiwan, then surely they have a reception.

Another question is, because we were talking about if there is enough vessels to want to buy this service, can there be a deal where the service, because it’s wholesale, could be lowered?Because as the Taiwanese government or the Taiwanese vessel industry, surely if they have many of these contracts, ...

And if it’s not, why is it not? That’s the question.

Yes, yes.

But the data for uploading is unlimited, which would then allow, he said, at least for photos.

Yes, around 1,000.

But we are in the middle of getting that draft agreed with the Fisheries Agency. We will make a public when it’s ready. And when they’re happy, we’re happy. Yeah, great.