Bye-bye.

Very nice meeting you. Have a nice afternoon.

That’s one of the many things I’m always amazed by, is seeing Taiwan scooting ahead with digital things. This one I didn’t have on my radar, but nice.

That’s cool.

Winning a hackathon with a marathon is pretty funny.

If there are any questions that you come up with afterwards, or if we come up with more ideas for use cases, [inaudible 93:40] we’ll stay in touch.

Cool. Thanks for all the questions. What I’m going to do after this is send an email to everybody in the room so that they have your email address. Then Jonathan, you can reply to all with the slides, so that we have at least a thread of emails with ...

There’s one chance. If the competition is like you have to carry a yellow card and your ID card or your phone, we might have a shot.

People are getting used to having things on the phone. Having something with the phone is already in the category that is easier than having a separate card for it.

[laughs] As I said, I’ve been trying to sensitize people in the Netherlands on [laughs] these issues. I know that they don’t always care. My experience with Taiwan has been that people care more.

What I like is that it puts the user in control that you can’t…Technologically, you can make it fine-grained, and you can put the user in the seat where they can decide to reveal something or not because it’s consent everywhere.

Then we can send you the slides. I understand you have been very fast in already absorbing things and maybe you got copied on all the others. Having the slides, these links, is maybe possible. And again also do a [inaudible 87:23] the strings.

The body of knowledge of information so, Audrey, I happened to get your address because D.T. cc’d me. I haven’t shared it with the others. Would it be OK to share this with them?

We’ve been having a few. We had Taiwanese students and also at Amsterdam, there is now one person who was with us who was an assistant before. We have some good exchange over many years. I don’t know whether that’s a noticeable majority.

I know. I understand. I’m the person who had this Command Line. I shouldn’t be the person who is doing these things that normal users get exposed to.

You need other people with the skills both for language and for proper web app development. I always say I think the PGP is usable. Don’t ask me to make it GUI.

Understanding what’s going on. My understanding is no range proofs. Jonathan can ask about this. We’re not the people who are professionals writing front end code things.

Basically, auditing the code base.

For future work, Jonathan and I can certainly not help with localization and in general. We can help support. Again, Jonathan has done – It was on one of the last slides. There was a link to his internship so while he was still a student and during internship, it ...

When we started brainstorming early January or March, these numbers are going up, our first discussions where we got in tracking, then vaccine passports, and then IRMA. By now, it’s end of May. Unfortunately the situation in Taiwan has changed a lot since. I hope it’s getting better soon, but ...

Since you mentioned…

I have never used YouBike with a QR code. I just know it exists. I’m the kind of the YouBike 1.0 user because it doesn’t have trackings.

Do you know whether the thing, if I take on YouBike’s 2.0, is it an active QR code or is it static?

I mean, for instance, in the bright and glorious future where we don’t have to worry about COVID anymore and we still need to check the ID card, do they need to check the ID card or do they need to check that I’m over 18?

That was our idea we’ve done with the bouncer at the bar and the vaccination passports. That’s another place where the bouncer at the bar shouldn’t be authorized to see all the information.

As I’m saying, as a foreigner, I don’t see all the pieces of connections behind there. What I’m seeing is there is now a scheme where people of a certain qualification can get things. Whenever there is people with a certain qualification can get things, this is a use case.

There is now a possibility for people of lower income to get free tests. How do you prove that you’re lower income? If you would have a credential about your income without revealing how much it is, but there is a credential for below or above the threshold, then you ...

Some more current use cases, there is now news – Foreigners don’t have all the details – I understand there is now a possibility for children to get free tests.

Which is also why we’re thinking it could be a fertile ground for fielding something which is both more - D.T., you’re muted – which is both privacy preserving and has the functionality.

There’s a conflict between getting more information to optimize things to justify more bus routes and so on. You want to have the information, and at the same time for privacy you don’t want to give that information.

It could be a blinded thing so that the front end only gets information that, yes, a valid token got through and the billing end would get the information of the distance without knowing the stages.

For MRT, it has always been distance-based. People don’t complain about having to scan their card because they want to get charged for exactly that distance. That could still be changed depending on what information gets stored.

I think there’s a conflict between wanting to do charges based on distance or not. The bus is a good example where it is fixed fare no matter how long you go if you pay in coins. It used to be fixed fare no matter how long you go if ...

Coins work. If you have a phone with NFC where you can change your ID, that can work as well.

Other than that, it’s like pretty much everything that IRMA does so far could be useful as well. What we’re brainstorming about is things that go beyond what the IRMA app is permitting you in the Netherlands so far.

Those parts are less transparent to me. Only have my personal experiences.

You have to go to the municipality hopefully fewer times. I had to go there every half year. Now I’m in a happy situation because I got a gold card. I’m good for three years. Before that, it was somewhat too many visits for my taste.

You could also have this as a way to prove your identity that you exist. That you’re a valid citizen or a valid resident. General registration front ends. Everything which needs some form of authentication.

I would have loved to have at least the application process be online and if I had a form of identifying myself to a website to say, “Hey, that’s me. It expires again. It’s almost December 4th.” Those things would be good use cases, where [harrumphs] there’s enough private information. ...

You asked about use cases. Of course, as foreigners, Jonathan and I only see a limited set of things. Our interactions that we have with government sites are probably, not disjoined, but quite different. For instance, I had to go and apply for ARCs quite frequently.

I’m just saying you used the word scheme without defining it.

A scheme signature. You’re introducing a whole new credential.

What I can see that could be possible is that the server gets your exact date of birth, then does a calculation and issues the result. That would be a weaker form of privacy than the rest. Jonathan if you ask them that, sure.

You can see on the top bar that you’re ticking. Better.

Quick matter of things. Laurent, mute your button because I’m getting lots of noise when you’re unmute. There’s lots of ticking. Sorry. There was a person muting.

My understanding is that in the end it’s a yes, no answer. You compute the range and then enter a credential which says yes or no.

Yes. This one does not have a range proof.

Your credential could be your date of birth, but then you would be showing the whole information. Or it could be a yes, no answer. In this display equation, the attributes are these. Exactly. Jonathan is finding the slide [circles exponents]. Those are specified positions and each position can ask ...

Then you can do range proof and such things. The way that IRMA – Jonathan, you could flip to the last page which has the credential thing – here the credential is just the thing.

You’re getting more functionality at a trade-off in complexity. For things that I care about, we have privacy guarantees.