Take care.

Thank you so much.

I watched it on YouTube.

I really enjoyed your TED Talk, by the way.

It’s really an honor to meet you.

Great. Thank you so much for your time.

That was very helpful. It was great. Awesome. Is there anything else that you think we haven’t hit on?

With the work you’ve seen, again, across borders on Cofacts, for example, or Code for All, are you confident when you look at US civil society and fact-checking relative to Taiwan, or do you see the United States has a long way to go before we have the same protections ...

[laughs]

I think it’s too late for that.

Don’t panic.

Thank you. That’s very helpful. This is my last big question. As the United States enters its own election cycle, what do you think are the most valuable lessons learned from Taiwan’s 2020 election cycle for which the United States needs to take notice?

OK.

That’s disclaimers, OK, and that was the…?

The line I saw was, “We’re not going to remove such and such…or censor information, unless there’s a court order.”

Has Google and the government resolved their differences?

The definition that they cited for “intentional harmful untruth” would potentially fall in between those three buckets.

That’s very helpful. I saw one of the debates…I honestly don’t know if it was resolved. When the regulation started coming out, one of the spokesperson from Google said…They actually cited their norms and their policies, and said that Google will not remove information unless it was sexually explicit, hate ...

Related question: On the 2019 laws from the spring about “fake news,” both the legislations and the regulations, I saw some pushback at least from Google. I don’t know about other tech companies on whether they would censor or remove information that they saw as fake. How does your ministry ...

Our Supreme Court said that’s free speech [laughs] and it doesn’t even need to be exposed as to who the donors are. That’s a good point. Did Taiwan force Facebook’s hand on the ad library? Because that is something that was instituted in the United States recently. I’m wondering, if ...

Is this step–the Act–kind of a step that says the government, the legislature, has to take action and they can’t rely on the tech sector, or not necessarily?

Of course, there’s a heavy dose of skepticism whether the private sector will have the incentives to really protect US democracy rather than make profit. This has been going on right now with our political advertisements. Whether they’re allowed on social media, right?

Do you think it’s an effective step forward, rather than something from the private sector? The US rhetoric is whether Silicon Valley can help solve some of these problems on their own. The Zuckerberg testimony in our Congress saying that Facebook was taking practical measures. There’s a pretty strong debate ...

Yes, AIA. Of course, it’s part of the administration’s policies. I’m wondering though about the concerns mostly I’ve seen from Taiwan academia about free speech and potential overreach. Are those viable and serious concerns, or is it more overblown…

That’s funny. More recent development…

[laughs]

Generally, it’s been well-received and adapted by the elderly population?

Has the program been well-received by especially the elderly and other adults? I’m just taking the US perspective. I don’t know if it’s so many differences in our society, but I would imagine [laughs] my grandparents’ friends being skeptical of being told what to see as fake and what not.

…Cofacts, yeah. How effective do you think both Cofacts and Taiwan Fact-Check Center have been at countering disinformation? Based on their successes, where do you see remaining gaps that maybe your office or you’ve been trying to engage?

That’s awesome. My next question was about…

Nice, I didn’t know that.

Exactly. That’s interesting. I’m also wondering, because the digital domain is relatively borderless, whether your office has come across PRC disinformation in other jurisdictions outside of Taiwan and Hong Kong. If so, what’s the next step? Do you coordinate with other jurisdictions?

Interesting.

That’s helpful. Another question that I was talking with AIT folks about, has your office come across deep fakes? Did you see that used in this recent election cycle?

Is it possible that there was other coordinated behavior that we haven’t picked up on yet? Do you think they were using maybe a similar playbook to 2018, but because they had less cognitive space to shape the discourse, just didn’t do it as well? Is there another venue, potentially, ...

I wanted to tell you what we were thinking and see if you disagree. Basically, it seemed to be more muted in 2020 than 2018. Would you agree with that?

Another thing, which I don’t know if this was the think tank that you mentioned before, I was talking with a colleague at IRI. They were in Taiwan to learn more about Taiwan’s election as well. One thing we talked about was the public disinformation campaign in Taiwan in 2020 ...

Wow. Fascinating. Something like that, with the special relationship between Taiwan and Hong Kong, is that something that you see as directed at both populations? Or, have they also done similar work directly towards Taiwan and not the Hong Kong protest?

The posting, was that from their website?

Exactly, since the US-China trade pact, in phase one, it’s going to fix IP.

Wow.

Exactly, like fake accounts. In the traditional media, like “Hongmei,” or “Red Media.” I’m wondering, as the digital minister, do you see the digital domain presenting other threats by PRC action, or are those really the two main areas that confrontation’s happening?

Part of my research is looking at a lot of PRC actions, trying to better understand the United Front and their campaign. The Western media has focused on, in the tech sector, coordinated, inauthentic behavior.

Do you see the media as basically cherry-picking these more divisive comments because they’re arguably newsworthy, but they don’t actually represent the rest of the society?

That’s awesome. I saw a YouTube about it. That’s great. Another question. Whether it’s an actor or a specific cyber threat, what do you think is the biggest concern for Taiwan’s democracy? What do you think is the biggest threat?

Part of the research though that I want to highlight is how innovative Taiwan has been. Potentially, the recent election shows how successful it’s been in protecting democracy. A lot of the tools are not implemented in the United States that Taiwan has implemented. My first question is “Just what ...

Yeah. [laughs]

The rhetoric of basically Taiwan’s democratic processes under threat and the defense of it at the frontlines, but it’s under-played, at least in the United States, how much Taiwan’s developed tools to protect its democracy.

The first thing I wanted to ask…Joel and I were corresponding about, of course, Taiwan being on the front line of democracy, as many observers have commented. I’m wondering though. Taiwan is less recognized for the innovative products that it’s put out to protect democracy.