Bye.

Is that what you say? I like it. I’m going to use that. Thanks. [laughs] Take care now.

I was going to say have a great day, but it’s evening, so have a wonderful evening. Thanks so much for talking to us.

Thank you, Audrey. Wonderful. Thank you so much. I’ve got plenty to be getting on with. Thank you.

Through your experience in the work that you’ve done, what is like on a personal, day-to-day level? Do you find that you come up against people saying, "I don’t know what you mean. I don’t understand what you’re saying," or do people really get what you’re talking about?

I just know that if it was the UK government, there’d be people there who’d just be listening to you, and they wouldn’t literally understand the language, what you’re saying, in terms of the technical speak and the idea of just the way you see the world.

You are in the government. You’re a minister without portfolio. Are there people in the government who genuinely...I have this idea of a generation of people who genuinely don’t know what you’re talking about. [laughs]

Thank you. That was exactly what I was looking for. My final question, because I know I’m nearly up to my half an hour.

Would you mind telling me what it means forking the government, what that expression means, and put it into the context of what happened? If you can just start your answer with, "Forking the government is..." if that’s OK.

Fantastic. Thank you for talking me through that. That’s brilliant. I have a question which I should have asked you when you were telling me the story of what happened back in 2014 in the government. It was just about forking. I meant to ask you this.

That is fascinating. Could you give us one example, please, if possible?

Thank you. That’d be great.

Sorry, Audrey. Can I stop you and ask you to start again with, "vTaiwan is...?"

Beautiful example. I want to ask you about vTaiwan now, please. If you could tell us what it is and what successes it’s had. Are we writing describing it as we’ve said, it’s a new multi-stakeholder consultation process, if that is correct. Otherwise, could you tell us what it is?

Something as simple as making your avatar the same size as the kids that you’re talking to, such a simple idea. That really sums it all up, doesn’t it, really?

That’s amazing. Thank you for reading that. I think you’re right. Too many people who don’t really understand this world are far too quick to jump at this idea that it’s all robots, and unfeeling, and no, like you say, no sympathy, no empathy, no human side.

That leads quite neatly onto my next question, which is about virtual reality, and whether you see that virtual reality actually being something that can help the democratic process, or is it something that would hinder it, in your view?

It’s fascinating. What do you see as the biggest threat to democracy then in the Internet age?

It just seems to me that you’re talking in a way, it’s like the future. I just can’t even imagine politicians or anyone in our government talking like you do. What’s so different there? Can you describe it for us, and why this is flourishing?

You’re using words like inclusive and participatory, which are not words that I associate with government, certainly not in this country. How is Taiwan getting this so right, especially when you look at the surge in populism and nationalism in Europe, and in the UK, in America?

This must have been an extraordinary time for you, not just professionally, but personally. This sounds like something that dreams are made of, this moment that you were part of. It was revolutionary. It was historical. Can you tell us a little bit about what that was like for you ...

Wonderful. Thank you very much, again. That’s far too helpful. The first question for you is could you give us the story of how you went from being an activist to a government minister?

That sounds great. Thank you. That sounds good. Thank you very much. If only all my interviewees would do that for me, that would be very nice. [laughs] I’m going to mute my microphone as well while you answer, because it will, again, make for a better quality of line. ...

This interview will run as a short, maybe six or seven minutes. I will cut myself out. I won’t be in it. It’ll just be you. I’m sure you’re a pro at this, but if you could give me full answers. If I ask a question, if you could begin ...

We’d love your take, as being our case study, for the digital democracy episode. How it will run is there’ll be an introduction from our presenter from Nesta, who will talk about the topic, give a big overview of the topic and Nesta’s work in that field. Then, he will ...

It was nice to see you briefly anyway. I guess the guys at Nesta have filled you in on what this is about. I think you’ve been in touch with Theo about this podcast series. I’m one of the producers.

Yeah, do whatever you want, whatever is best. No problem at all.

I appreciate it. I was just going to say, when we do the interview, I’m actually going to switch off the video, because it makes for better audio, which is all we’re interested in. I will do that. Maybe I’ll do that now, actually.

Hi. Thanks so much for doing this.