Thank you.

Wonderful. Thank you very much. Really helpful, really interesting.

Is there anything else from you that you would want to say to us, or ask us?

[laughs] That’s great.

You talked a lot about how the government has been operating, and then some of the architecture side of this. What’s the impact been on the users? Are they user slash contributors? They must have an impact on that.

If you could say a little bit about the impact on the general public.

…technical issues.

This facilitator role is what animates things. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it feels like you need to define certain terms in ways that would allow other ministers to then take pieces of it and go deeper, and they can work with these types of artists, or they can ...

I love the term of the good enough consensus. I think that’s always the way to avoid getting stuck. I’m thinking the same thing, just around this role…

My background as a mediator and in doing peace-building work in violent conflict zones around the world…I think you’re like…a capital M Minister is what I would give you.

How many combined ministries?

How many…

Can I come back to the horizontal minister thing? I love that phrase. Can you define horizontal minister versus, is it, vertical minister?

It feels to me like an emergent property that’s actually a function of this. It was the free software people at the beginning. It’s the distributed users who are all contributing to maintaining and designing, furthering the system. That feels to me very emergent.

In other words, no one sat at the beginning 20 years ago and just had it all laid out and said, “It’s going to be this, and it’s going to work that way.” It didn’t seem like it was necessarily a specific plan. It may have been a general intention, ...

Anyway, in complexity and systems there’s this concept of emergence, which is that new realities emerge that couldn’t necessarily be predicted before. What’s interesting to me is that the depth of the pro-social character of the architecture emerged.

I find it really interesting that…I work with lots of organizations around complex systems. Social systems, not technical systems.

In the timescale for the current system, how long did it take to get you to where you are now with the digital delivery of democracy in Taiwan?

How do you grapple with folks who don’t have a pro-social intention? In other words, they try to exploit something in an otherwise open system, to co-opt or to divide or polarize.

You mentioned they had a role in agenda-setting. Is that the start of the processes of figuring out what do we care about? What do we need to work?

They make through the bridge to the private sector. I have questions about how the social sector is activated. Is the social sector the one saying, “Hey, we care about blank issue.”

If I was taking a step back from what you said, they’re not the ones generating the core fuel of content of this. That’s the social sector, but they can then scale. They can deepen it. They can give it roots. If there are relevant laws that need to be ...

Well, I’m on the upswing of the caffeination process.

I just had dinner. I’m in the Midwest. I’m in Wisconsin. Not quite East coast time.