Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you.

Even if this man, he was already in the administration, he never was able to get the green light to do that.

It’s the previous head of that. They’ve really been given the green light. There, the generation issue comes first, because you see that Macron is 39, and he is bringing that kind of spirit in government. You won’t have had that a year ago, I think, with the previous president. ...

That’s the kind of things which could be...

Schools prefer to pay the private service to do their schedules, because it works, rather than...He said that’s exactly the kind of things they want to avoid. They pushed for innovation within the ministry through small teams, and open for projects from people from outside. You come, you have a ...

They built a crazy system for the timetables that every school, that tens of thousands of schools can use to build their timetable for classes, for teachers to use, and so on. It’s been so badly built that there’s a private system that is being used by two-thirds of the ...

They have this man who is the gang organizer. He is building bridges between the teams, and so on. He has had the authority to do that, and break the traditional mold of doing things. For example, he was giving one example in the ministry of education.

Yes, and then they’ve got best practice.

That’s a very new approach. They’ve been doing that now. He said half of the ministries already have their incubators. That’s a very interesting approach.

What he was saying is that the traditional way of the ministry would be to have a committee decide something, implement it, and then wait for reactions. The startup way of doing it is you do something, you see reactions, it fails, you go back. It’s approved, you build on ...

They’re dealing with the most sensitive issue, because parents, kids, teachers’ unions, historians, philosophers, everybody is involved. Half of the country has an opinion about how the Ministry of Education should be run, and is not happy about the way it is run.

What he’s been doing is that he’s been creating incubators of startups within each ministry. He was on the radio the other day. I was listening, and it was quite interesting because that sounded not very French, in the sense that, for example, in the ministry of education, it’s one ...

In France, in the new mood that we have this year, one of the things that the government has been doing, they have appointed a DSI in the French government, which is a new thing for France. I think US have had, under Obama had one. I don’t know if ...

Frankly, I don’t know any example as comprehensive as an experiment with cabinet authority. The difference is there. There are many people who are trying to develop tools -- civic tech and so on -- but they do it from outside, not from inside government. That’s interesting.

Probably, you can build on that with digital tools to expand. That’s why I was saying earlier on that you can get direct contributions from citizens who might not be completely represented, even by user associations as well. That’s interesting.

You get them in a room for two days, and no agenda, and you try to get them to agree on five points, to move forward and get things done. These are methods that are outside the box of normal government procedures. That’s interesting.

It was a housing crisis, not enough houses being built, and waiting lists for apartments, and so on. You had around the table 200 people or less from the real estate companies, the Ministry of Housing, the associations of users, and the lawyers, whatever, backers, and so on.

These conferences are pre-digital formats. It’s physical, but it’s been a traditional way of advancing on certain issues in France. These are very traditional methods. For example, I remember there was one two years ago or three years ago on housing.

Not as advanced. I don’t know. There are bits of it, like participatory budgets. Who doesn’t do that now?

Yes.

Thank you. I like this backdrop.

Can I make a picture?

I think that that image, it’s important to realize the balance of power is obviously very different, but the positive side not being just defending, but also opening doors is important.

What you are talking about has nothing defensive. It’s on the contrary. It’s completely building things. That’s something that people never hear about Taiwan. We always hear, "Taiwan needs to be protected against bullying," and all that.

Not only that, but I think one of the problems of Taiwan’s image in the world is that it’s always been talking in defensive terms. "We are the victims of China."

From the previous century.

Yes, immigrant from...

Yes. Age matters and doesn’t matter. It’s true that if you’re a digital native, you’ll be easily moving into those directions. I think you can be over 30 and understand it.

Almost 30. [laughs] That’s the same age average of the new French first circle on the president. His top adviser is 26. This is something very new for our old republic. [laughs]

The average age?

25.

How big is your team?

Thank you very much. It was really very nice to see you again, and to hear that, because it’s very, very encouraging, and very innovative thinking and practice.

Yes, exactly. I’m sure he can combine highly centralized and conservative anarchism.

I think he can hear that, and he would be sensitive to that, even if he’s in a very centralized government. I’m sure the key phrase of our president is, "At the same time." He’s trying to combine...

It is changing. I think someone, like the new minister of technology, Mounir Mahjoubi. I don’t know if you’ve met him.

You mean physically or your robot?

Really?

Dissolving their efforts, actually. [laughs]

Public service media should be the place where you get facts, where you get some neutral -- if that’s possible -- presentation of issues. That seems to be lacking in this environment, and democracy has to be fact-based, otherwise it cannot work.

Don’t you think that that should be pushed? Everybody is complaining about the Taiwanese media, that they are very polarized, very commercial, very shallow.

We were discussing actually, it was quite his point, public media, public service media. They seem to be very weak here. We’re talking about that the other day with the president of the Taiwan Foundation for Democracy, and he was saying that no one watches public TV.

That was very interesting.

You just mentioned that the two parties fighting for or against gay marriage didn’t have at all the same information. This is not a normal situation, since there are some overlapping things. Do you have an idea how the system you are building could help, without becoming media, but I ...

I do not have an idea right now. How good the system you’re currently building, beneficial to the exchange of information?

I would like to say a word about the Reporters Without Borders. I don’t know if you’re familiar. We’ve opened this bureau in Taipei.

Not marriage for everyone.

Actually, the law should be no marriage for anyone.

"Why are you fighting for the right to get married? We can abolish marriage."