The point you made about automation’s really interesting because most people view automation as a threat, particularly to jobs, but you’ve shown how automation can be something very positive.

That’s really interesting because that goes to another issue that I wanted to speak about, which is the fact that sometimes the work that you’re doing, but also the work that others are doing, are spoken about as that it’s not really the E democracy effect, if I can be ...

How do you create solidarity in which you’re speaking to each other, recognizing their local issues, in that these are local struggles, but also sharing best practices and things, and creating a digital solidarity?

I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about that, in terms of we seem to have a lot of different progressive technological movements coming, like from Momentum in the UK to our revolution in the US.

One of the things that I found really interesting, again, if I can be so bold, is I’ve seen in some of your other interviews is that while you, yourself, work within Taiwan, you and others in the civil hacker movement, also in more technological politics, and certainly with the ...

One of the things that is really interesting, as well, is in terms of 21st century solidarity. Traditionally this would mean this almost Orwellian...he went down to the Spanish Civil War, he fought, and he got shot. If also means the common term.

Even if it’s something like creating a strike, you use WhatsApp to organize the strike, then what comes next? How do you engage in collective bargaining? How do you engage in a vibrant economic union, a co op, or on a more political sense?

Absolutely, and that’s a really interesting way, because what we’ve been looking at a little bit, as well, is how mobile technologies can serve as, like you said, a very nice upfront ability to not just do the outrage part, but also form connections through things like WhatsApp and create ...

More than just voting, or more than just reading about issues. I’m wondering if you would talk a little bit about what you think are some of the civic hacker, and even anarchist values, that can inform this, and also what are some of the obstacles to getting people to ...

One of the aspects that we’re looking at is how much of a civic hacker mentality is informing this and how much is it just a tool. For example, a lot of the work that you’ve done, if I can be so bold, is trying an idea of open source, ...

One of the things that we’ve seen in a lot of these movements that have used, before going to the more governance part of "E democracy," is the ability to use mobile technologies in the broadest sense of the term to mobilize support, to mobilize support across a large group ...

I wanted to explore a little bit about, if it’s all right, how you see this creating transnational democratic communities, and then we can talk a little bit about how that relates to more local political struggles, and how they’re related to each other.

In fact, a lot of the original hacker politics was almost an alternative form of globalization, which is saying we don’t have to respect your non digital borders because we have different forms of communities.

One of the first things that I was really interested in that you were saying and that’s some of the work that you’re doing is the fact that you come from a tradition, and I like how you said your native tribe, is free software movement, and also some of ...

[laughs] No, that’s perfect. That’s a really background and foundation. It opens up a lot of really interesting ways in which we can explore this a bit further, theoretically and politically.

If you want to take a couple minutes, just to give a little bit of your background and how you moved from the point of view of coding of free software into a more political domain.

I guess, if it’s all right, and I know you’ve probably done this many, many times.

We’re trying to find out a little bit more about it, particularly for our project that we’re working on in terms of our book, "Guerrilla Democracy," but also in terms of broader issues about how we can use technology as a disruptive and positive political force.

Excellent. Thank you so much for agreeing to the interview. It’s a real honor. As I’ve mentioned in our original message, I think, for a variety of reasons, we’ve been very inspired by the work you’ve been doing.

Why don’t we just go with your recording. Is that all right?

Excellent. OK. Let me start this. I apologize. I practiced with this yesterday. I usually use my Skype for work, not my personal one. I’m not used to using this one. Unfortunately, I’m not sure if it’s letting me record.

Yeah, if you would like to. [laughs]

I can hear you fine, absolutely. One quick thing before we start. It’s fine either way. Are you all right with me recording this? It won’t be for public. It will just be for our records as we’re writing the book.

Hi, Audrey.