Thank you, Audrey.

Me too.

And that, it can be fast. It can be fast, right? Everybody thinks it’s slow in here, right?

Thank you.

We’re trying to create new programs of education in New York. That’s something that I look forward to reading more about, and then we could follow up for sure.

I’m going to go through some of these materials that you just sent or put in the chat tonight, because we’re going through that. We are thinking a lot about, how do you educate people to do this kind of work, educating the public side, educate in the government worker ...

We got into the conceptual aspects and asked about the history. We’ve covered a tremendous amount. I don’t think I have anything else for right now. There’s always much debate, but this has been fantastic.

Great example.

That’s a great example.

This stuff becomes very much an issue around social reproduction and gender. Go ahead, Anne.

Yes. Thank you. That links back to the gender budgeting and the gender evaluation with the budget.

We’re in a bad position in the United States on this for sure. It couldn’t get much worse, although it seems like things always can, but…

How is that debate play out in terms of profits, and how they get invested? Does the participatory mechanisms impact on how the surplus is reinvested?

When you mentioned the energy transition white paper, we were even talking a little bit with Francis about in the New York State, today we had a hearing. I was testifying in a hearing about a carbon tax, about a polluter’s tax. Not just a carbon tax, but the pollution ...

One of the reasons across Europe and the United States and Latin America, different in Asia, that people want the utilities to be more in public hands so that the profits from these enterprises can be reinvested in resilience, in addressing inequality, and speeding up the transition. Is that an ...

Very heroic. Thank you, and I wanted to ask about social media, and how this fits in, in terms of political speech, so you were ahead of me. You answered before I asked. Let me drill down on a different point though, while you bring this up. What about people ...

Do you see, in Taiwan, is there tensions around the public-private partnership with respect to the social sector? Or is there more of coexistence with those or trust in those models?

I use the phrase, social public, like there’s this re-articulation of the relationship between the public and the social. It’s not a great phrase. I’m hearing you use this term social sector, it’s not the bottom. The social sector is defined by a project.

How do you understand this more democratic public? Participatory governance, the terms civic engagement, are very inadequate. Consultation is interesting.

On the other hand, though, there’s this level, how do we conceptualize these new arrangements that we’re creating or are being created? When we think about public-private partnerships and privatization, there’s always a lot of tension to those, and the kinds of agendas that they set.

A lot of different things. Let’s stay on the concept of the social and the social sector. One thing that Anne and I, in this project, we’re operating on two levels. On the one hand, Anne and I, have both worked as bureaucrats or worked with bureaucrats, in terms of ...

Yes. Thank you. Go ahead, Anne.

That’s great because it reminds me of rotation in a cooperative where you go into different roles, you get out of your silo, you get out of your own box, and you look at how these issues are playing out in other areas. I guess that’s a great idea.

How were they trained? Who trains them, because this is one of the things we’re looking at New York. How do we train the folks working as government staff to be able to do these more participant…?

Can I add another follow-up on that? Your participation officers, so they’re paid by the government? They are government staff?

Thank you.

Great. I read about the case of Uber and the taxis in Taiwan. I was just curious, is something like Uber that was resolved through this participatory process where the taxis got a new app, and that was about entering the vehicle and they’re marked. Has there been a return? ...

One follow-up on that. I know at least, and I’ve only been able to follow some things because of English, just able to read what’s in English, but I read in the early phase of vTaiwan, the recommendations made to the national legislature. Some of them were followed by the ...

Yes. It shows the importance of an ecosystem of innovations, and how do we connect them, and how do we empower the different aspects and the new possibilities that result from it.

Also, the new technologies what they offer us. For sure, we’re very excited to learn more and hear how the vTaiwan process has evolved in the last several years.

I was excited to be able to meet Anne when she came to New York. This project is really trying to develop a framework for how do we think about, not just municipalization or making the services public, but redefining that public, given the digital innovation, given the desire to ...

I’ve also spent the last seven years working on climate change adaptation policies for New York City. Again, working with communities, working with the climate scientists, and working not just with the elected officials, but with the folks actually working in the agencies who deliver the services.

Exactly. Right, PDF. I have followed a lot of the innovations out of the vTaiwan process. As someone who has been involved with participatory budgeting, I have that angle on how do we connect government with communities but also with expert knowledge. That’s this triangular interface that we’re trying to ...

I know that when you were here in New York, some of my folks were at that, and enjoyed meeting very much, and Beta NYC, and a lot of the folks working in the digital space. I’ve read some of the reports that they’ve written. I think some of the ...

Absolutely. Nice to meet Audrey. My name is Mike Menser. I’m also based in New York. I’m the co-founder and president of the board of the participatory budgeting project. I know that several of my people have met you and have been to Taiwan. There was the conference a few ...