Thank you very much.

Is there anything you want to add to this conversation?

Would you say that we are in the end, heading to a post-digital type of society?

You actually tackle the very forward question I wanted to ask you about. Again, how do we go back to this narrative and bring those people who are now opposing the fact of belonging to this digital society? How do we bring them back to the table, and try to ...

Would you say that "tech for good," it’s like a new tagline, and so many other digital types of trendy places? Tech for good is like, what, tech washing in a way?

Either in a way some here, we could have that form of harmonization on the Internet.

Of course, we’re also talking about digital, or would you in a way say they do belong to this platformization of the world and the vision that will tend to actually harmonize what we’re thinking about, the way we do access information and the way we do politic. The way ...

Speaking of networks, would you think that the elites would be more global because we’re talking about digital and more open minded?

If we do acknowledge there’s some workers on this digital economy landscape, we could probably also agree on the fact that there are digital elites on the other hand. How would you define them? Do you feel you’re part of this digital elite per se?

I heard that people won’t use technology they don’t understand, or they don’t trust. How do you intend to make those forums of new direct democracy usable or super seamless when it comes to their utilization or usage?

From your perspective, how can we reconcile both parts, and try to actually make a social contract 4.0, if you may, work?

"We don’t want to buy the part of the story where you’re telling us that 6 out of 10 jobs in the future have not been created yet and that we probably can create them together. Again, what we are focused on is pay in the end of the month, ...

Second, with all these researches and analysis about the fact that we’re going to break 30 to 50 percent of the jobs as we know them by 2030, because of automation, because of privatization, because of AI, they’re telling us, "Yeah, but that’s our jobs you’re going to crash, basically."

Yet, if you take the Yellow Vest phenomenon for instance in France, even though they never really named it this way, what they’re somehow showing us is that probably some part of...France is part of what’s called the startup nation, whatever it actually means. They don’t want to be part ...

Still, do you think that global platforms...they could be Asian, they could be American, whatever they are. Actually, do they have some political or societal project for us?

On the other end, we were, of course, talking about the societal issues when it comes to technology, and the way again, we’re somehow backfiring in technology. There was also the other part of it, the economical version of it, way more monopoly than there used to be out there ...

We’ve seen also platforms on the other end, understanding that type of backlash, and trying to redeem themselves, but way less demanding from their users actually. Are we on a threshold of a change here?

In a way, we’ve been seeing over the past few seasons, a lot of user backlashing on technologies. Even though those people and citizen per se, are really good users of technology, they don’t want to buy more of it, just for the reason of privacy, just for the reason ...

That we probably need to go back to the basics and to a more pure decentralized vision of it or mindset of it. Would you say in this way that a forum could be the future of Internet?

Exactly. Would you say it also relies on a new way to rethink the Internet as we know it? Of course, we have Tim Berners-Lee broadly speaking about the fact that basically his printer has been taken under monopolies by a monetized form of the Internet platforms.

Which would actually please our friend Glen Weyl, I guess, which is a fierce defender of the...

Would you say that at some point that will lead us to a very interesting discussion I guess on what could be called the digital elites at some point? What do you think about, again, counterculture versus a more normalized culture?

Coming back to your path as a hacker being an official of the government right now, how do you feel coming from more of a counterculture and type of the Internet and your style bringing that spirit into government?

Inclusion and trust are definitely the two words which are actually the base to build upon an e-government and really efficient e-administration.

Some of the Taiwanese e-government features make me think a lot about Estonia, of course. Would you say that there’s also a question of scale, Estonia having like 1.3 million inhabitants, there’s 23 inhabitants here in Taiwan? Is that a question of scale or of mindset?

Elections are coming here, too, in 2020, January, if I’m not mistaken again. Do you think Taiwanese people are craving for political debate still even though there are background question when it comes to mainland and those type of topics? Would you say that Taiwanese citizen and voters per se, ...

I don’t know if you’ve been following closely the grand débat we had in France over the Yellow Vest Movement. Do you think that it’s a new form of direct democracy that could be brought to Europe? Of course, European election are coming. We’re definitely craving for more political debate ...

From what I read, over the past few days, even legislation has been passed on Uber taking into account what citizen have been saying on V Taiwan. Is it something super genuine when it comes to the making of the law here? Is it this tool you would use once ...

Which happens, if I’m not mistaken, on vTaiwan which is a platform where citizen can...There we go. We have an interaction of a future voice on V Taiwan here.

The previous secretary of digital actually also took part in some government or politics hackathons with g0v hackers, as based in the community, being part of it for so long, which is such a tradition here in Taiwan, to try to bring together what the e-government or civic tech could ...

Would you say that’s in a way breaking silos?

While under in government, did you feel that, for some reason, you had to cut into your core values as a hacker again, or are you more trying to bring to the government or an institution the hacker type of mold?

I wanted to sit with you for a very good reason. You’re the secretary of digital when it comes to the government of Taiwan, but you’re way more than this. Before entering government, you were a hacker.

That’s great. We’ll have a doublecheck recording. Let me see if it works. I can’t put...No, I’ll do this this way. We’re at the Social Lab which is the innovation place when it comes to Taiwanese ecosystem. I’m sitting with Audrey Tang. Hi, Audrey.

Let me see how this is work. It’s bring you to me in a more digital journalist way. It’s fun. I think it will work.

You’ll tell me if you feel you’re part of them, or not, or frightened of them for some reason. I was attending a workshop with my friend and your friend, Michael Lin from MIT, yesterday. He says, "Hi."

Elites.

What we are trying to do in Technikart is to tackle whatever’s called power. You’re the right person to do so. Then there’s part of the discussion I want to have with you about an upcoming book I’m trying to put together right now. You’ll see we’ll dive into this ...

There’s definitely two topics we’re going to tackle today. The first one, the portrait, I want a feature of you on the French magazine I’m also writing for, which is called "Technikart," which is a little techy, but kind of edgy and everything.

There you go. That’s good publicity. I’m sorry, because I didn’t send you any draft in between.

I’m happy you’ve been happy with it.

We’re happy with the show on the 24th?

You are based here?