Thank you. Bye.

I’d love to have you there for further conversation.

Thank you so much. That’s a powerful way to close the chat, I think. Well, as I told your colleague, Joel, when he was bringing the phone to you, next time when you do visit the Netherlands, also consider The Hague, not just Groningen, which is far off, close to ...

I’ve been in a debate with Japanese officials. The interesting thing is even the ‘human centered’ and ‘human centric’, the difference between them. The Japanese made a really big point out of this. Some of the European representatives were talking human-centric. The Japanese were very meticulous saying, “No, this should ...

Sorry. What intelligence?

The final question that I had in the list is to what extend are you familiar with the EU European approach. I suppose that’s really not of your main interest. From what you know, what strikes you as what are we doing well? Where could we do much better?

I realize that you have to go elsewhere soon. I don’t want to be keeping you. I understand also you’re going to be speaking in another public European forum, of course, at the University of Copenhagen.

I’ll have a look at them there. Thanks for sharing that.

Wow. That’s amazing. While it’s coming up soon, can an outsider see some of that? Sorry, I’m a real…

He’s already declared it yet? I didn’t check, but he was supposed to in Japan.

You pick the topic based on this SDG and then you have hackathon identifying targets you say?

Maybe of the international importance rather than what people say.

What kind of topics would you be most interested in discussing then?

That’s an amazing new initiative, then. I didn’t realize, I have to admit. That’s valuable information also. What are the key international institutions that you think are most valuable for Taiwan in this field to be participating in?

…because of your status. [laughs] Well, your colleagues at the ministries of foreign affairs at least.

…a bird’s eye overview, yes, about international institutions, and of course, this is difficult for Taiwan because you cannot participate in many of them…

I would love to discuss all of this in much, much more detail, but for now, it’s great having sort of an…

That’s interesting. Sorry to be jumping from one topic to the other.

It’s part of that.

The Blue Dot Network?

That’s amazing. What was the name, you said, of the JBIC, OPIC, from Taiwan?

You’re optimistic about the extreme use of the data that you might be able to gather, but of course, in societies that are less developed, that perhaps also don’t have the big broadband access as China does but still depend on other elements of this, it would be ceding the ...

The question on China’s Digital Silk policy as Digital Silk Road, I still would love to have your views on that. What is it, first of all, that you can talk about for three hours or three days, but…

That’s clearly also your ambition, to contribute to your country then in other countries.

That’s, as you say, the social sector that you’re engaging. What about foreign governments? Are you in touch with them as well? Again, the examples you gave are very much the social sector, but I’m quite sure that there’s many governments around the world who are quite jealous that the ...

Yeah, OK. Of course, we know that in the policy domains that you did not invent, because from all the examples you gave, it’s obvious that you’re inventing many new things, but this new Southbound Policy is something that the Foreign Ministry, I suppose, invented. There is a digital element ...

That’s why you said it’s a hobby?

It’s powerful.

But with that tag of digital minister?

Creative… working against hierarchy.

It has the .tw, but that’s it.

Yes, indeed. What other examples would you give in the foreign policy domain?

I think all these GAFAs, the platform companies, they have a bigger GDP than some countries.

Trolls, yes. Then about the foreign policy element. I see many of the examples you give and where you come from, of course, is Taiwan domestic. That’s a huge agenda already. I wonder are you also involved in some of the foreign policy challenges that now also involve a digital ...

[laughs] I had a friend in United States. He did hugging the trees.

That’s how your ministry grows big.

This is actually similar. That’s an interesting comparison, actually. I never thought of that. Thank you for that. Then perhaps if I can still invite you then to talk about what you say is your hobby. Foreign policy elements…

This talking has to do with this lack of freedom of speech, or lack of digital human rights. Do you think that in Taiwan, people are…

In Europe, for example, because of the coronavirus, governments are now reconsidering industrial policy because we’ve become so entangled with a country that, on a certain policy, is now impacting us in a way that we have never imagined it could.

Still, within a certain country, you can never hold people accountable, but the question is, are we going to have a discussion?

I’ve heard people say that you should bring China to account for all that’s happened with this coronavirus, and I don’t think that’s going to be in any way feasible.

You live in a part of the world where national borders are still much more important, and where there’s countries emphasizing that others cannot say anything about what’s happening within their national borders, and then they are bearing the consequences.

You’re talking to somebody in the Netherlands. We have been willing, more than some other regions, of course, in Europe, to give up some of that sovereignty, so I think you’re talking to a sensible person in this sense.

I should, therefore, all the more ask you, right?

[laughs]

How do you see that, the impact of other people, other countries doing different on foreign spaces, is I think increasing in this digital age, right? That’s what I meant with national sovereignty in the digital age, and how this is changing with your particular…

So interesting. How about this point of digital human rights? I would love to hear your thoughts on that.

Many democracies in Europe are struggling, obviously. This is also why your experiment, although I shouldn’t call it experiment because it’s already…

In most countries, government officials are not on top of things as compared especially to activists on digital issues, which makes your position so particular, that you are actually assisting government, which then has much bigger reach than many other social movement that you could think of.

Excellent. No, the order obviously doesn’t matter.