One of the things that I’ve noticed in my preliminary research and also working with others and understanding what the emerging literature on this question is, is that different countries have come up with different models for how they do that, unsurprisingly, and so we can already begin to differentiate ...

One of the interesting aspects also of the work that we’re proposing to do is to look at how different countries have organized their national cyber establishments.

OK, fantastic. This is great brand building. It’s actually the experience that you’re undergoing and overseeing in this country, is actually now become quite a regular experience. There have been a number of countries that have attempted to do what you’re doing in one way or another.

It’s a great play on words.

You probably know this – “moda” means style in Spanish.

The new ministry.

Spread the message. Nick.

I’m going to take more than one sticker, if that’s OK.

Sure.

I’ve said quite a bit…

I understand you’re in the midst of a change yourself here in terms of setting up…

If that kind of an effort is to succeed, then we clearly and absolutely need the support and participation of some of the leading people such as yourself working in government in a country like Taiwan that is doing so many innovative and interesting things.

That would generate data that can actually be valuable for the research, and then to produce scholarly works that try to engage directly with that world of practice. For example, in these policy labs, what we hope to do is create reports that summarize some of the main findings and ...

We’re proposing to hold at least one big, yearly workshop where we gather not just academic specialists, but also crucially, practitioners, leading practitioners in both government and private industry, put everyone together, and run panel discussions, simulation experiments, testing ideas and evolving policies in response to major crises and challenges ...

One of the ways that we’re trying to set up an environment for that to happen is what in Oxford we call knowledge exchange, which in the case of this specific project involves setting up what we’re calling a policy lab.

Indeed. Another of the foundational premises of this work is that the research that we do shouldn’t just end up in esoteric academic journals that only scholars read. We think and strongly believe this should be work that should be influential in the world of policy making.

What I think we lack is precisely what, in collaboration with Jason, Acer, the Acer community, and we very much hope, as well, you Audrey, is this kind of systematic foundational initiative.

There isn’t really even a field of cyber studies that is firmly established within the academic literature and within educational programs at the university level. This is something that I and a few others who work in the field have been trying to change for many years.

Exactly. This is where again it becomes really striking to me as a political scientist. I have to say one of the very few political scientists and international relations specialists focusing on cyber and digital affairs, it’s actually quite rare.

That requires a close and deep understanding of the political and geopolitical motivations of the threats and how those threats are evolving in response to those motivations.

That’s another one of the foundational premises of the world that we’re trying to establish in Oxford is this notion that if you’re going to have the benefits of a digital society, you better really prepare and think seriously about the vulnerabilities that that invites and what you’re going to ...

It’s also important to emphasize that what we’re really interested in investigating is not just the security and defense aspects of these issues, but also what I like to call the sunny side of cyberspace, which is, of course, all the benefits, social, political, economic that come from the increasing ...

As well, exactly. That’s where countries like Taiwan and Estonia is a very prominent example, the United Kingdom to a great extent is another example, come to the fore.

That might actually be true, but as I say, those are the right answers to the wrong questions, because what we should really be looking at is how this digital activity is weakening countries from within in order to debilitate their foreign policy positions.

It’s a very opportunistic strategy. They go in and they try to exacerbate preexisting social and political divisions in order to weaken countries from within. This is quite striking to me, because some skeptics would say, well, you can’t use cyberspace to conquer territory or to even coerce state behavior.

Exactly. They’re taking some pages from the Russian playbook in ways that I think are very worrisome. We see this, for example, illustrated in various social media information campaigns conducted in this very country in election context.

In this regard, it’s especially notable to emphasize the evolution in the Chinese threat, as I see it. China has long been the world master at stealing intellectual and military secrets online, but that threat evolution is changing. What we can observe, and again, you guys are at the front ...

The way that – this is now my own particular view – geopolitical contenders, like China and Russia in particular, that are challenging the liberal international order, are increasingly using the vulnerabilities of cyberspace to pursue their political and geopolitical purposes.

…the way that these threats are affecting basic infrastructure, economic infrastructures, transportation infrastructures.

…including, of course, in this country…

It’s something that I find especially striking as a political scientist and international relations specialist who has been working on cyber issues, in my case, for 15 years. It’s striking because when you look at the way that technological threats are now affecting the integrity of democratic elections…

I know that this is the kind of argument that for someone like you is very self-evident. What’s striking is that there are few, if any, systematic research and teaching programs at a global recognized university like Oxford that is dedicated to these issues.

Exactly. One of the foundational premises of the project that we’re trying to set up here with Taiwanese support in Oxford is this understanding that we have that cybersecurity issues have a fundamentally political and geopolitical set of motivations among many of them.

Maybe, Audrey, it would help because it’s been a while since we spoke, maybe I just give a broad overview again of the project topic and objectives.

I don’t know if I’m pronouncing that correctly.

Fantastic. First of all, let me just thank you for this opportunity to meet with you. I think you already have a sense of what we’re trying to do here in collaboration with Jason, and in particular with 安碁 and Maverick…

Bye.

Thanks Audrey. Bye-bye.

Goodnight.

…eight hours.

In the hotels. To echo Jason’s thanks, I’m grateful for your time and for your interest today. It’s been a fascinating exchange. I always learn new things. It was the case today, so thank you.

I’m very eager to go soon, yeah.

[laughs] Fantastic.

Jason, what do you think? It sounds to me like we may have a first potential case study to explore [laughs] in politics.

As a student of government and politics, that right there strikes me as a fascinating case study for someone to investigate, about how government bureaucracies restructure themselves, in your context, to address the kinds of institutional and policy coordinating technologies that you after all have been facing, right?

Does that mean that a lot of those individuals will transfer to the new ministry?

You’re currently a minister without portfolio?

OK.

OK. Are you responsible for also appointing your lieutenants, like your deputies and stuff like that, or that’s not?

When do you expect it to set up, officially?