No, outside. Outside is better.
Where do you usually take your pictures? Here in your office?
Can I maybe take one picture of you or...?
It’s been a pleasure, really wonderful.
No, you’re right. Thank you so much.
Exactly. There was some pessimism. [laughs]
...of the Occident.
That’s very good even though, I guess, there’s this one famous work by Oswald Spengler. It’s "Der Untergang des Abendlandes." What’s that? The decline of the...
Goethe would be in there.
My last question. It’s great listening to you because you are so optimistic [laughs] and so energetic. I’m sure you’ve also had some challenges or frustrations.
It sounds great. I know my time is nearly finished.
Who are the Digital 7?
From where?
Have you had already a lot of interest?
Ahh.
I’ve heard it for the first time. I’ve heard of soft and sharp power, but never warm power. What does that mean?
Warm power.
Of course. You do want to export. You do want to be able to role model, right?
When you compared yourself, for example, to Estonia, which is always the model state in Europe, what are the differences there?
Let me rephrase the question and go back to the beginning. On the front of reinventing democracy digitally, are you on the forefront?
The social credit system, for example, right?
You visited Estonia and the Scandinavian countries, who are much further than we are. If you compare Taiwan, where do you stand there? Are you on the forefront globally?
You’ve also been to Europe and you’ve visited some of the states. I come from Germany. For me, this is very innovative. We are economically very strong but in this front, we are very weak in the digital, and especially with government.
They were chickening out, basically. They were...
Because the constitutional court decision was already one and a half years ago. Why hasn’t there been concrete steps right afterwards?
As an observer, why?
Why did it take parliament so long after...You’re not a parliamentarian, so you’re not the one...
It will only about the wording then in the end?
What do you expect off the referendum, the same-sex marriage referendum?
That is a big change. Taiwan society as a whole sometimes can be quite conservative in their values.
Has it changed?
Do you also see that in the reactions you get to yourself as a person, as a transgender woman?
Yes, and Freddy Lim. He is older than you and he still counts as a representative of the young.
Maybe I will ask her later after we finish this.
In Hong Kong, there is a lot of disappointment, and a lot of frustration and resignation.
Would you say that the young people, the young generation, that they have a feeling of accomplishment now? I’m asking because I’m just coming from Hong Kong. I was in Hong Kong two weeks ago.
Really fun, and the feeling of history in the making somehow. Like in Hong Kong a couple of months later. Of course, a lot of the passion is gone now, because you cannot sustain it for a long time, probably.
I would say one of the most prominent maybe. I was also there. I was in the parliament for two days, amazing, really.
In a way, you are also part of the legacy of the Sunflower Movement, right?
Also the KMT?
I mean, not from your side, I know. The people who accept it, are they...?
Does it go along party lines?
Of course, I know the examples from your talks. What would you say is your biggest?
It hasn’t been too long a time. Two years now. What would you say are your...Can you already see tangible successes?
Do you see that?
To be facilitated, exactly.
To facilitate. In your fellow ministries, do you see the will in most of them? There has to be a will, right?
You always stress you don’t take orders. You don’t give orders. You’re just here to help to supplement...
Exactly.
What is stopping them? What do you think?
