OK.

Exactly. That would be, we could have you or Eric join in and give them a talk about Taiwan’s perspectives on this.

That would also be interesting to have you and the ministry associated with that, maybe of giving a talk to them.

…that make innovative projects that should help solve some of the…or be part of some of the solutions for democracy in their country as well, as a way of strengthening the digital resilience as well for them, of course, with Russia as a big, looming neighbor.

We’re actually doing in the Alliance of Democracies foundation, this program on democracy and tech entrepreneurs, where we have a cohort from Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova…

We have, of course, the Copenhagen Democracy Summit on 15th or 16th of May 2023 coming up, where we typically always have a lot of Taiwanese join, from the President, Tsai Ing wen, to the Foreign Minister, and you’ve also been on some of our webinars. We had Freddy Lim ...

Thank you. It’s always a pleasure to be with you. Look forward to continue the contact.

GitHub, because it’s in their own interest to get access to AI research or…

Will that also protect you against the PRC?

This has been great. This is a lot of the things that I wanted to cover with you. Is there something you think I should have asked about that you’re doing at the moment that’s important for you?

This is digital resilience. Actually, I would look forward to your transcript of it, now that I, of course, I haven’t take notes.

I’m glad that you have two. I was looking like a little bit panicky, looking weird. It’s not recording.

That’s great. Now I realize that I’m a digital dummy. I had not pressed my own record button, it looks like.

A lot of it has to come from civil society. If you’re a new minister of digital affairs in Denmark, you can say, “I would want the civil society to do this.” If your civil society doesn’t do it yet, how do you make that without it becoming too government ...

I was interested, do you think Taiwan…? Maybe, I’m already by asking a question, and calling it a unique model. At least, the way you’re shaping society with where you also come from originally — from the g0v to GovHack, to all these things, to PTT — is this replicable ...

No, I would totally concur with that.

Have you talked with Kosovo about this? They also built, I remember, a very strong digital strategy for digital presence. They registered the digital domain way before they had a lot of the recognition that later followed.

Congratulations. Why did you choose that title?

I noted that you had a Department of Democracy Network. I, of course, like that.

The Sunflower movement.

You think that will keep making change in the PRC? At the same time, we also see the other tools of surveillance and repression as well.

Yes, they deal with that. That’s great. Joining to the other side of the Strait with the A4 Paper Revolution. I’ve been here while this happened. I just wanted your thoughts on that.

I will check it out.

What do they do?

Is there something you would recommend, maybe of new things that since last time, from Cofacts to g0v, to Kuma academy?

Interesting. I’m going to look, while I’m here, also the other zero defense initiatives like the Kuma Academy, with Puma Shen.

I see. That’s also something in the foundation, where we actually have some media literacy programs. Would be interesting to work with you and the ministry. The result of seeing in Taiwan, we made it as also a game that you play up to an election.

Of falling in disinformation?

Do you evaluate that …?

You think that’s the long term inoculation to Chinese disinformation?

Yeah, but also in schools and…

What about the media competence? That’s something I heard you talk about as well, and you mentioned co creation. That would be interesting to hear your thoughts about…

Maybe being the longest serving minister. I know in ‘14 you were not minister.

That’s true. Microsoft as well has taken also a lot of initiative in that regard. What about you? Maybe this, of course, administration is likely to end in 2024. What’s the legacy you would like to leave in…

If you have any good advice on how to make the funding model for journalism.

It is. I think that’s something that the new government that’s in Denmark would probably also like to tackle.

For example, it was part of that one, I saw that the Taiwanese workers would suffer a lot living in the Arizona, which is… [laughs] I don’t know. None of us know, but it sounded…It is propaganda, of course.

Anyway, that was my own small example. I’d be interested in some of those newer ways that you see disinformation trickling through YouTube, through many others into Taiwan.

It’s basically a Chinese produced video about how negative it is that the Americans are forcing Taiwan and TSMC to open the Arizona lab. Then, I look up the YouTube channel, man, it has a good amount of 20,000 followers, and claims to be a reliable source in tech. I ...

I was recently doing some research on your excellent semiconductor industry. Looked over YouTube, and suddenly, YouTube suggest a video. It seems strange…The way they explain it, there’s something odd here. Then, I suddenly noticed that the numbers they used are renminbi, chinese currency.

Back to our question, follow up question on disinformation, and also to make it very concrete.

Do you print anything?

Interesting. A simple question. Do you use paper in your ministry or no paper?

What is that? The zero trust architecture?

Great. I’ll pass that on. Back to cyber attack and disinformation. First, maybe on cyber attacks. How great is the threat against Taiwan on cyber attacks, and do you see it as increasing, and what are some numbers?

Now that you’ve been digital minister a little bit longer, what do you think is important for her to build as a first thing?

Great. I’ll pass that recommendation on. Actually Denmark has just gotten its first new government and its first digital minister. I also had that one as one of my questions would be, what would be your advice to such a new minister, Marie Bjerre, she’s called.

…was classic, exactly. Anne Applebaum also used it in her article in the Atlantic after meeting you. I’ve just been an election observer for the local elections in November. Have you seen any examples there that we can explain what we mean by disinformation in a Taiwanese context?

Having followed Taiwan, the case in 2018 with Kansai, the Osaka Airport…

That’s very interesting as well. Then let’s also talking a little bit about disinformation. We’ve talked about this topic before, but we’re interested in you explaining again your take on how to deal with this, and then some practical examples if there’s some newer ones.