OK. Thank you so much.

Thank you very much. As for your job description, may I share that with others?

Open Culture?

Right. May I ask, who in Taiwan will be involved in running a workshop in Bangkok?

I’m sorry.

I understand. I won’t take up too much more of your time. I really wanted to meet you and make this introduction. I hope that we can stay in touch.

OK.

When you say they demand a one-hour response, what does that mean?

They have their hands full just transitioning to digital media…

Forming a coalition. The challenge is how to bring the traditional media into this coalition so that they might benefit from it.

The traditional media might be doing its own fact-checking, but it’s not tied into a larger network of fact-checking, whereas online media is more…

That’s what really should be happening.

The suggestion that you just made, I would like to have it sink in so that I can begin thinking more about it. One of the issues here in Taiwan is that the traditional media may be doing some fact-checking on their own, like Liberty Times, but it’s not connected ...

It’s interesting to know this. Tell you what, I don’t want to take up too much of your time.

With the Sunflower Movement?

Yes.

Some of the younger people who didn’t experience any of the suppression that occurred then are susceptible to thinking, “Yeah, maybe…”

That’s interesting. I’ve noticed in Indonesia that some younger people who have no memory of the New Order regime of Suharto are susceptible to what some older people are saying about that regime, that order was kept in those days. That there was predictability in those days. There’s a longing ...

They don’t even have words for it.

Do you think that the younger generation, say, those born in the 1990s, are they as susceptible to the sentiment attached to this reminiscence about authoritarianism as, say, people in their 60s and 70s who might think, “Ah, those were the good, old days?”

The referenda of the last year being…

There’s something similar in Indonesia, where some people now miss Suharto.

Still?

I was here under martial law.

OK, thanks. Let me ask you, just to learn a little bit more about your work, what do you see as your biggest challenges?

Thanks. Joel, can I stay in touch with you and…?

Yes, that’s a good idea.

This event will be on the fifth and sixth of October, which is only about three weeks away or so, so I’ve got to get busy with this.

Yes, that might be a good place to start. I’d be really grateful for any information.

That might be a good place to start. I can look at the equivalent situation on the Indonesian side. Maybe that will fill up 20 minutes and give people in the audience a basic understanding about these…

Thank you.

This might be an interesting thing to talk about because it is a fundamental starting point. This basic work must be done before other things can proceed. How can I find out more about this situation so I could just give a 10-minute talk on it?

Yes.

I’m wondering, are there domestic problems like this in Taiwan?

I’m thinking about what’s going on in the United States right now with President Donald Trump doing certain things that aren’t illegal, but nevertheless undermining the ethos of democracy.

This channel between the fact-checking agencies in Taiwan and Indonesia is intended to defend their democratic elections. Is there any problem in Taiwan about which I might learn more in terms of…

A 20-minute presentation goes quickly. It’s not a whole lot of time. I’m wondering…

I wanted to ask you for your advice. In order for these fact-checking agencies to have credibility, they do have to be neutral. They do need to have a critical stance domestically, as well as internationally.

What basic message can I get across to these people to help them understand a little bit more about Taiwan and Indonesia and the importance of having a channel of communication between their fact-checking agencies.

I’m not an expert on South Korea, Japan, Philippines, or India. I can say something about Taiwan and Indonesia. I’m wondering, in a 20-minute presentation, what can I say?

I wanted to ask for your advice, to speak to an audience of people who are very intelligent, but not scholars. They’re doing practical work with setting up these fact-checking agencies in the Asian democracies.

My presentation will be relatively short and cover a relatively general topic. It will not be a terribly scholarly presentation.

At this gathering next month, Professor Hu has asked me to make a presentation for about 20 minutes. There’ll be numerous presentations. Mine will be just one of many.

…the Philippines and India.

I received an invitation from Professor Hu to come and make a presentation. This is going to be a gathering of fact-checking agencies from the other democracies in Asia. There will be representatives from South Korea, Japan, Taiwan and Indonesia…

Absolutely. This is something very practical versus something that’s more strategic. Let me tell you what’s on the short-term horizon. Here in Taiwan next month, October fifth and sixth, there’s going to be an international forum held in Taipei.

To export, yes, but to say that their dialogue is motivated by such a future export may be sensitive.

Once they perfect these methods in Taiwan, or believe that they have made them effective, sooner or later, they’ll use them elsewhere. I think Taiwan has something to teach.

…this can be done. I think in terms of disinformation, Taiwan is a particularly important place, because it’s at the forefront of new methods that China is developing. Taiwan will become the expert on China’s methods.

These fact-checking agencies are nongovernmental agencies, so…