Well, we were invited to be here, but I learned from you a lot. And I see you have very young staffs. So maybe we have to pay something.

Yeah, the mother, yeah. But you maybe need the father, too, I guess. ‘Cause it doesn’t seem to be happening anyway, because I think many governments have this challenge, not so much trust. But still, it’s not coming up with such a radical idea, I think, and it’s an excellent ...

Well, necessity is necessity. It doesn’t always mean that they become…

But it is a Taiwanese innovation from the beginning, the reverse mentorship, is it?

They learned from you.

I see. So do you know of any other country that uses reverse mentorship for the ministers? Or is it entirely–

It’s a good idea.

I see. Thank you.

And the other question is maybe very much more difficult to talk about openly, but anyway, where are the main challenges going forward in order to sort of preserve and develop further this functionality? I guess there are some issues.

So first, how embedded is the narrative? Okay, everyone knows, everyone sees that, okay, this is to present, and we avoid doing mistakes that are much more expensive to us if we have this functionality. So to what extent is that narrative already embedded?

Could I follow up? I have two questions related maybe. And the first one is, it seems obvious to me that the impact you make with this sort of function to the system and to the different politics is huge. But to what extent is the narrative of how this ...

Okay, so they can then benefit from system design that they get.

So actually the 2% are about motoring and design.

I would like to just ask, you mentioned motor, but it seems that you’re also a design architect for the solutions, bringing them together. Is that so?

It’s a good way of nudging the system.

So it is, but telling the secrets would be really valuable.

But still, these power games are really strong.

I mean, you have your power here, this ministry. So, it seems that you released, or you relaxed that power game somehow, because a shift of interest to what we are going to not be hated by the public, or more than that.

But just adding to that, I think that’s also power game.

I would subscribe to that, fully. The same.

Absolutely.

That’s great. An innovation in itself.

Perfect. Wow.

But anyway, so do you have any such challenge? What are the secrets? We need to do a similar thing. I think this kind of governance innovation would be extremely important. Also very challenging, difficult, because I think here sounds like it, but maybe that’s an over-interpretation that, okay, the ...

One additional question is, have you also a challenge, do you have a challenge with different layers or levels of governance here? I mean, a national, a municipal, a city. In our case, we usually have, which are important public data related municipalities. We also have quite strong regions, which ...

So what is the secret, really, that you have done here? Okay, you started very early, but why aren’t our ministries able to, which I think they are not yet, to institutionalize a similar thing, a similar function? It’s very difficult. So where is the secret? So if a ministry ...

Another question connecting to Dr. Jang’s, I think, discussion here, where I’ve been really interested in working at an innovation agency, and then governance innovation. I think this is a governance innovation in your system, which I then, when I think about it, why wouldn’t it be possible, why would ...

Innovation, actually.

Wow.

And what was, really, the impetus? Why was it happening? Was it, and is it strongly embedded, sort of resilient over time, in the sort of institutional structure of the ministry, or the Taiwan institutional structure? So it would live on, even if, maybe, things may change, in terms of ...

So my question, maybe, would be then, okay, you have started this ministry, I think, if I understood correctly, very, rather recently.

Trilemma, or even more lemmas. Or how many can you have, really, in order to be able to see the multi-dimensional and deal with it.

Thank you very much, also, for receiving us. I think this is really impressive. And my interest is that, okay, this is really, you seem to have been trying to embed, really, the cross ministerial, cross dimensional things that are so difficult for, at least, where I come from, in ...

Can I follow up?

That’s wonderful.