No.

Earth from space?

In the short term, you’re losing out.

I imagined people would say if you’re willing to use power in the old way, the existing system has no problem with using power in the old way.

Like all the ministries and the Parliament are still...

Yet a lot of the old power structures are still very much alive, right?

You’ll have a budget of that.

It’s not even that expensive. [laughs]

...lead in all sorts of domains. Just recently reading about how Norway is playing a big role in cleaning the oceans and stuff. I feel like small countries like Belgium and like Taiwan, we could punch above our weight by getting involved.

I often wonder about that. I come from Belgium, which is this tiny country, which used to have a sense of pride around its role in the world. We’ve completely lost that, but you have countries like Norway which still...

Something to be proud about, right?

Yeah.

I’m curious, by the way, about this message.

It will probably be a long time before somebody dares to touch this again?

In practice, CSSTA was killed with this, was stopped?

The other five points were more or less...

The same scrutiny and the same...

Then the students end up with a draft, CSSTA? What was the outcome?

Because I have a sense from listening to you talk about it, but I wonder if I oversimplified it in my mind, that basically the goal from students was to show the politicians how deliberation is done...

Did the students inside deliberate, or what?

They bring that into the deliberation inside.

Synthesized it, and the students just covered.

Civic media...

The cycle was that during the day, there’s deliberation outside of the parliament...

Was some of that relayed by mainstream media, or was that purely...?

Can you give me the two-minute summary of deliberations?

Is that somewhat documented? I’ve heard you talk about it.

The only thing they’ve described, it’s simply a student protest and just a negotiation between...

I was curious. On the plane here, I read the Wikipedia article on the Sunflower Movement. On the Wikipedia article, they didn’t talk at all about the deliberation that happened inside the Parliament.

There must have been probably the catalyst thing with the Sunflower Movement, just the breakdown of...

The surveillance state.

Because there’s a big monster already.

Probably in Estonia and here also, a sense of urgency or a sense of threat.

It comes completely fresh.

Is so ripe, right?

That begs the question of what makes that the soil here...?

It has reached a cultural soil that is ready enough?

What do you see is the future for you? How dependent is this, right now in Taiwan, of you?

Without portfolio.

You’re retired anyway.

There was a ban here in Taiwan?

I was more thinking in terms of depth than breadth. Hopefully, people get more comfortable. People get more experienced.

Where do you see all this going?

This is a very different process than the discourse pol.is process that you use in vTaiwan, right?

There’s a whole online part before, then people gathered.

It sounds like there was a whole part of data gathering from the ministries and then feeding that to participants.

Otherwise, I can just translate the page with Google Translate and then I can find the blog.

You have my email.

Can you quickly share with me what the actual process was? What platforms did you use?

It’s a particularly beautiful example of how this...