Yeah. Bye bye.

OK. Yeah.

Yeah, that’s it for me.

OK, yeah, that’s great. I have no further questions, so I’m really happy we had this conversation and we reconnected.

OK, OK. That’s great. That’s great. Yeah, and I mean, when I say interviews, it’s not only with you, but if there are other public civil servants or any other people that you think might be relevant and for academic purpose, that would be great as well. You know, it’s ...

And if the topic interests her, I can say, look, I got this advice. If this is interesting, it is also very interesting also to me, honestly. So I can follow her in this project. So she won’t be alone doing… I will also because she is a master’s student. ...

Yeah, yeah, I will. I think she, for her dissertation, but I can also work with her. It’s not just I’m leaving, abandoning her. I’m her supervisor. So I will be there in any case. I could say if she wants to pursue this, maybe she needs to find some ...

Yeah, that could be very interesting. We have a very good point. And I could say this to them that maybe pandemic is not that, it’s an old topic. If she’s still interested in looking at this, privacy and security issue, she can look at this initiative that you are ...

No, look, she had this very broad idea of looking at the trade-off between data privacy and security and safety. In the handling of the pandemic, she mentioned some technologies such as digital fan system for case monitoring, mobile geo-positioning for contact tracing, chatbots for mobile apps. But I haven’t ...

No, yeah, I think she doesn’t need a huge amount of material because it’s a dissertation, it’s not a big project. But I would tell her that maybe she can think of something else or… Yeah, maybe she can just do a full text search on SayIt, which will have ...

Yeah, okay. So because she was thinking of maybe trying to contact someone in the Ministry for Health, but do you think they’re also aligned with this let’s move on approach that there would not be, you wouldn’t advise her to go on this specific topic?

So basically she was interested in shedding light on how you have successfully handled the pandemic in Taiwan and looking specifically at these, at the trade-off between data privacy and national safety, so the nation and the public value.

Yeah, yeah, that would be great, absolutely. I have the last point. So one of my students in the Master on Information Systems and Digital Innovation, she is a brilliant student and she, has a passion for what are you doing in Taiwan, actually she was also trying to send ...

Yeah, I am. And okay, so I can look at the materials and then you tell me what’s the best way forward. I know you’re super busy, I don’t want to abuse of your time, so please, I’ll dive into the material and then you tell me what’s the way ...

Yeah, that would be amazing. And yeah, because that will allow me to rely on some materials that I have already thought about in my PhD years and try to go ahead. But also, I mean, basically everything you are doing is amazing for my potential research and I would ...

But in the pilot project, it’s also something that allows to test and control the technology and can reveal other things. So a different idea of pilot projects rather than the simple. We do something very small. If it works, we scale up. This is something I put in my ...

Yeah, that would be great because I went back to the notes. And I mean, you had an issue of aligning the legislation with the 5G. And also, this pilot project that you mentioned is something that is still there in my PhD dissertation because I’m trying to advocate for ...

So while we try as much as we can, me, Antonio, our colleagues to open the black box, or at least if this is not possible, which we are aware of, put it up front. So this is the technology. And we want to discuss the implication, the problems, the ...

No, look, they’re all very interesting to me. And again, I’ve been trying to focus on now in academic research, as in many other areas, AI is clearly the buzzword. And everybody’s thinking is trying to focusing on AI. And not always this is good, because I have the impression ...

Yeah, it doesn’t need to be AI. Yeah, it can be any adoption of technology in a public sector context.

Because I mean, I’ve been studying the whole situation in all the cases in Peru, for instance, by Zoom calls. I got access to ministers. I got access to director generals, to very top policymakers only on Zoom. I was super happy, but it’s not like going in the field ...

No, but I can build a case. I can build a case, and I can ask for funds. In this time of the year, I’m literally buried under teaching, so I don’t have any other time to do research. But hopefully, I’m ending my teaching time now, and I can ...

So it depends. In my project, I would love to come to Taiwan. Then unfortunately, it doesn’t depend only on me. It depends on some funds that I need to raise, and also on some clearance from my university.

So it’s an open and frank question. I’m ready to accept no’s because I know it’s part of the game. But since I’m here and doing this job, you know my philosophy, you know my approach, I wanted to just connect because maybe there are things that can be of ...

Again, whenever I approach policymakers and decision makers, I’m always very respectful and very aware that there are things that cannot be shared, that are things that you legitimately don’t want to share. But if there are data sets or information that you think, or cases, the one of the ...

The purposes that I’ve been talking in this call. So not simply to digitize something, not simply to cut the cost, but also to increase participation, transparency, accountability, all the issues that you guys are very careful of in your government activity. So one thing that I would be interested ...

Okay, so Audrey, you are doing amazing things. And one of the reasons I wanted also to reconnect is to again explore again if there are possibilities to obtain some materials or access some cases to build academic research. Again, I know I’m aware of how important is security, transparency ...

But that generated interest because again, it was an attempt, it is an attempt to shed light on policymakers digital skills in a social technical way. So not just you all guys go study this, it’s you guys, we do this workshop, we do. It’s always this philosophy that we’re ...

They asked us, my colleague, Antonio, me and other to prepare a report for the G20 Indonesian meeting. So there was the digital ministers meeting in Bali early September. And we prepared for them a report on the need to equip public sector with digital skills. So it’s something that ...

I remember we discussed the adoption, the Taiwanese adoption of this sandbox of 5G. And we were thinking of how to frame this in a sort of negotiation between the law and the technology because you have this, the need to align the technology and the law in order to ...

Remember we focus on, we have this angle of public values who try always to look for trade-offs. And I’ve been writing a couple of paper. One paper is about Italian policy-making process where we are doing, where I interview Stefano and other member of parliament, other civil servants so ...

Okay, so very, very briefly, in these last two or three years, I’ve been doing research on adoption of technology in policy-making process. I have this political science background. Now I’m researching digital government. So I’ve specifically had the opportunity to see how the adoption of algorithms has been used ...

We are now having real troubles at university with students using chatGPT and these instruments to do the essay, to do the exams or whatever. And so it’s hard for us to find a solution right now. But you know, it’s something that is out there and we will find ...

It did well. Well, now we know.

With recording, with transcript, anything is good for me. And I just had a look, that our December 2019 conversation is still online. So I just had a look at what was our call and the topic of our call then. So your transparency system is definitely stronger.

Bye.

Thank you very much, Audrey.

Definitely.

Yeah.

What can be said. We will definitely have a look and stay in touch.

Otherwise, it’s good to establish a relation. It’s good to try and to look. There are ways or things where we can collaborate. Also, from your side, if there’s something that maybe we didn’t find, or we didn’t look at first, but from your opinion, it’s something that can be ...

About the sandbox, yeah, I had the opportunity to check. I had the opportunity to study how the mechanism worked. I find it very, very interesting. If there’s any further material, any additional material that you can share about this single initiative, we would be very happy to have a ...

I came across many of your initiatives, and I have looked at the portal, the website of the government. I think there are many, many initiatives that I really deserve to have a look at.

OK.

Yeah, he know that.

Thank you for your time, for your availability. May I ask to add to our conversation Professor Cordella?