Have a great day.

That sounds wonderful. I look forward to it.

I like that. It is great to get to talk to you. I really appreciate you giving me much time, Audrey.

That makes sense. Is there anything I should ask you here that I haven’t or anything you would like to talk about that I wouldn’t know to ask you about? You obviously know your digital world much better than I do, so the things you think should be in my ...

What would you unbundle into there or what have you unbundled I guess, also into the social side?

When you think of what might unbundle, what might be the things that the civic sector, the public benefit side, what might be the functions that you’d unbundle into that part of society. What comes to mind first because some things might be fine in the for profit sector like ...

It’s a marketplace and also the central political communication square and also a place for you to connect with your friends and have baby pictures, and then there is unbundling. At this point, the weight of so many things become contradictions and the places cannot really survive under that many ...

People buy up the bloggers and the “New York Times” buys the Athletic, which is a sports website [laughs] and then you get unbundling again. One of the things that I’ve been thinking about with this era, is whether or not we might be entering into an unbundling phase. These ...

One of the things I’ve been exploring in this. In my industry media, there is a tendency to go through cycles of bundling. You make a newspaper and it’s got a sports section and classified and so on, and then unbundling. You get blogs and you get individual websites and ...

That’s interesting. In a way you’re saying that we have diminished the word social. By calling these things social media, we have come to such a thin definition of what it means for something to be social that we’re actually doing some violence to what the concept could be?

I recognize this is a more philosophical question, but do you think the experiment with trying to structure things through the social graph has been a good one, and we should build on it? Maybe, it went to far, and it is worth rethinking if that’s the right way to ...

TikTok is much less social than some of the things that came before it. Before the rise of social media, you would go to home pages and you’d choose things. Netflix is not really social media. At one point, it tried to be a little bit more like that. Spotify ...

One thing I’ve been thinking about in this whole area is whether or not we should understand the era in which we grouped communication socially, where social is the important descriptor of what media was like, where we followed people and were followed by them, as the right way to ...

That’s really interesting, definitely not something we do very often here.

I’m sorry.

I’m sorry, tell me more about that. You’re saying that, when you’ve done some of these, instead of simply counting how many people are on one side or the other, you’re counting how many people shift sides?

Tell me a bit about…I know you’ve worked very hard on different projects where there’s a space for citizen input that actually lathers up to certain government decision making consideration. What did you learn about how to run those in a way that is credible to people?

That’s really interesting. How widely used this PTT? Is that something that most people in Taiwan are familiar with?

In the Taiwanese context or in any other context you’re familiar with, what would surprise somebody who is used to the American social Internet? What is run for the public benefit or run by the state that here we understand as a private for profit concern?

That’s the best analogy of something where you have a piece of Internet architecture that is central, that is not controlled by the government, it is not controlled by a for profit group.

It was there, but I don’t know that it is now. The closest thing to that in American technology metaphors would be Wikipedia as owned by the Wikimedia nonprofit. That’s the foundation, I’m sorry.

That’s right. When you had asked this, I was thinking about…even as I said it, I was thinking about how we have a term for the civic sector, but I don’t think it is consciously a sector. It used to be the associational sector. Unions are much stronger in this ...

The mediating layer in between government and the private market, things like organizations and churches and associations.

We usually call it the civic sector, if I’m right about what you’re talking about.

If I understand what you’re saying, you mean, if you say the term social sector, is that a term that…?

On the other hand, in a highly polarized political system — even putting aside polarization — the idea that the government would have the competence here to run it, and to keep the system up, running, and doing really well, people are skeptical of that. Is that just an American ...

Do you think it’s possible for these kinds of communicative platforms to be run truly publicly? I speak from the United States context. You will hear people say…Even Jack Dorsey has said, I think he says, “Twitter wants to be public. It doesn’t want to be private.”

They speak about what, you said?

Tell me about what comprises a meaningful feedback loop.

I’d like to hear you talk more about that. That’s very much what I’m thinking about here, too. People are skeptical you can govern these social spheres truly democratically, that it will be too unwieldy. It’s fine to let everybody talk, but not everybody can make decisions. Tell me what ...

I was curious to hear if you have reflections on that? What might a truly democratic social sphere look like? What would the principles be or what have we learned about it?

In particular, one of things in my mind is that we’ve talked forever about how social media democratizes communication, but we know it’s not run very democratically. You’ve had much more experience than most with trying to create true digital democracy – democracy in the way people participate, but also ...