That’s fine.

I do think there are some more details that we can work out. I will ask the local team to prepare materials and send them over to you.

All right. Thank you.

Yep. Always better than the alternative, right?

Minister, I appreciate the time.

Well, the future’s going to be interesting, but what we know is right in front of us, is let’s make ride-sharing work here in Taiwan, right?

I don’t know if that’s true in cars, right? I think flying cars are a different issue than autonomous cars that are on our surface streets.

Well, we’ll see. I don’t know if that’s true or not.

But I do think this period, just in terms of passenger transportation, to get people more used to not buying their own cars, not using as much, sharing transportation, getting used to carpooling, that’s clearly going to be an important bridge to autonomous driving.

We need to finding a way to encourage that. There are some distinctions, I think.

I think that’s right, but I think there’s a big distinction between that and someone getting in their Toyota Prius, who may be a teacher, or a student, or a small business person and saying, "Yeah, I’m going to make a little bit of money for a period of time."

Right now, the technology is more for the longer stretches of highway, yes.

Sure.

But I appreciate you taking the time. It was helpful to hear your perspective on this, and I hope that we can figure out a solution that works for the government, and works for us, and that’s generally what we’ve seen around the world, is this is not a divide ...

And then what you get out of that is obviously what we all want, which is fewer cars on the road, and those on the road, have more people in them, and as many of those as possible be emissions-free or better for the environment.

Millennials, if they had their choice, would rather not drive. This next generation, Generation Z, probably doesn’t want to have to learn how to drive, so we have to have enough transportation options, I think, to support those desires.

But also, from a mobility standpoint... as it turns out, there was huge gaps in our transportation ecosystem. I certainly didn’t have a full appreciation for it until you begin to see the service really explode, and you see how it’s changing, in some way, how people move around.

I think Taipei, and really the entire country, is going to be such a great example of how ride-sharing can really help. You think about the government goals of stronger economic growth. Ride-sharing surprised me. Six years ago, we wouldn’t have thought we’d be here in Taipei talking to you, ...

I’d like to reflect on this conversation, and whether it’s as a follow‑up call, let me put some thoughts on paper, "Here’s what we see in e‑taxi proposal, here’s where the tension is, and some suggestion for how to move forward."

Absolutely.

It needs something, I think, but the principle of making it easy for individuals, and not to think about this from a taxi fleet perspective, is really what is required to have all the benefits that flow from ride‑sharing.

I think, rather than putting historically large fines on individuals, let’s find a way to craft regulations that work for our shared goals and more mobility solutions, and ride‑sharing, of course. Again, this is not that complex of an issue.

Sometimes very small things that may seem terrible intrusive, our evidence‑based history suggests that we just won’t be able to see the scale that you’re looking for. We have violent agreement I think about the shared goals. I think the means to allow this to happen are still some things ...

Again, I think that sense of fleets, taxi companies, that has never been part of the regulations that really work well, that really allow ride‑sharing to flourish, and the ecosystem around it. We appreciate your perspective, which is you understand the value of this, but sometimes we have the difference ...

That’s where some of the tension is. As we look at it, we don’t think what’s on the books here and this threat of a massive fine on individuals is consistent with scaling. It’s not just for us, but for others. If it’s OK, I’d love to get back to ...

That’s a fleet approach, as opposed to individuals using their own car and using this technology.

They use it in conjunction with public transportation and taxis. It all fits together. But what we do is unique.

We’re starting to change the way we see people think about moving around in cities. They don’t use us for everything. They use it to fill in gaps. Some people use us three or four times a month, but those three or four times a month, they know, wherever they ...

That’s right, but I think that’s what is required for people to engage in the activity. They obviously want to make a little more money on their schedule, but the societal benefits that come out that are pretty incredible.

What’s worked is brand‑new regulations that understand what ride‑sharing is and what it isn’t. Again, we’re not suggesting we should not be regulated. We think smart regulation makes a lot of sense. Obviously Taiwan is unique, like every country is, but we’ve got a lot of good examples of how ...

Without providing the right kind of regulations is...I think what we see here is maybe some adjustments, but it’s basically grafting some things onto existing taxi regulations. Again, we haven’t seen ‑‑ in the rest of the world ‑‑ that work.

Again, I think that that sense of, I guess the term is multi‑apping, that sense of making it even easier for people to make money on their own schedule, it’s incredibly important to have a regulatory structure that supports that at the foundation.

So you’re saying you want the government to basically do the...

Some of that delivering people, some of that delivering goods. As you know, we’re doing food delivery in many places.

That’s a great point, because really, for ride‑sharing to flourish, what you’ll find is those drivers will have our app open, another ride‑sharing app, two delivery apps open, whoever has work for them at the moment. It’s not an exclusive arrangement. They are not necessarily viewing themselves as a professional ...

It’s not just choice for consumers who ride it. It’s a choice for consumers who drive.

Generally, this is good for drivers. Most of the people driving on the Uber platform are just average citizens. They’re not professional drivers. But for professional drivers now, whether it’s taxi, limo, or truck, the nice thing is now they have another option.

It’s a different set of requirements when someone...although, I think that’s a good opportunity to look at what we could do to deregulate it for the taxi industry, too, to give them more maybe price flexibility, supply flexibility.

Going into offices...I think recognizing that you can accomplish those same things using technology and a more streamlined process. That’s based on a lot of experience about someone who’s just looking to do this in a very part‑time capacity, and maybe for a short period of time, is willing to ...

Our evidence suggests that things like written exams...again, in the year 2016, with technology...

...with our driving check.

They have to have a driver’s license, obviously.

Except on the details, because what you’re talking about, I don’t think is consistent with ride‑sharing being able to flourish. What I like to do is get back to you with some specific suggestions.

It also is going to have to be behavior of people, that they’re comfortable doing that. Again, that’s where we think what we do, and other companies, is an important bridge.

Again, I think that bridge is important to autonomy, because the autonomous future is going to rely on, obviously, technology being close to perfect, the regulatory structure being in place, infrastructure changes.

With technology, you’re only inconveniencing them a few minutes. They get a half‑price ride, and most of them our drivers tend to gravitate towards fuel‑efficient vehicles. Eventually, those will all be electric, if the price comes down.

It’s great, because really since the early ’70s, we’ve talked about how, as a global community, we can approach carpooling on scale, and it’s never really worked. There’s casual carpools, as you mentioned, but we’re starting to see, on scale, a pretty big behavior change around people’s willingness to share ...

So, you’ve used it in Paris?

UberPOOL is something that only works when you’ve got enough liquidity. Using technology, in some of our major cities now, 50 percent of the people who use Uber are not getting in the back seat by themselves. They’re carpooling, particularly the younger generation.

I think figuring out a way to remove this threat of massive fines on drivers who are just local citizens trying to make a little bit of money, but also the notion...we are a technology company, and again we believe that transportation that’s provided, there’s a smart way to regulate ...