Anywhere I am, it’s my office, and so I prefer to work here, where there’s hundreds of social innovators co-creating the space. Every Wednesday, I’m here from 10:00 A.M. to 10:00 P.M. Everybody can talk to me and book 40 minutes of my time as long as they agree to ...

This is part of my public negotiation in 2016, October, when I joined the Cabinet. There were three conditions of my mandate as a digital minister in charge of social innovation, open government, and youth engagement. The three conditions are, first, that it’s called location independence. I get to work ...

This is where I usually am. This is the Social Innovation Lab in Taiwan, and it’s near the Chien Kuo Flower Market in the Central Tower near the Daan Park. I mention this because I’m working with the government, not for the government.

This is my actual office. I am only here intermittently in the administration building, but I guess this is considered official visit, so we’re meeting in my more official office. [laughs]

Let’s get this machine thing going. Just a second. Just a second, let’s see if I can get the technology to work. Just as they’re working on the visuals, maybe you can look at my screen. It’s easier. [laughs]

Sure. Then maybe you can quickly, after the five minutes, introduce yourselves and the questions we want to ask, and that will lead our agenda.

Do you generally know my portfolio or mandate, or should I begin with a five-minute introduction [laughs] of what is my main work?

No problem. Thank you.

Only then would the legitimacy of the extradition law make sense to the oversea community and also for everybody concerning this protest, including people in Taiwan.

If the PRC wants Hong Kong to adopt this extradition law, I think it’s best if they can just focus on implementing correctly the 16th goal of the sustainable goals by making their trial process fair and transparent and generally trusted by the international community.

The reason why they went to the street is that people can plainly see that the right to the rule of law — the right to a fair trial and things like that — are at the moment not present in PRC to the same level as we enjoy in ...

I’m sure that if the PRC have reached those goals and if they are independently assessed as having the same fair trial system as people in Hong Kong enjoy, then there won’t be as much outrage to this extradition law.

The Hong Kong’s protest is mostly about people currently looking at the PRC and seeing that in terms of sustainable development goals, they’re 16th goal is about a strong institution for a fairer justice system.

I don’t know what’s next, right?

We watched the livestream. I watch it until 3:00 AM.

They’re deferring the substantial deliberations.

Mm-hmm?

...I am cutting down air travels. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Maybe my robot...

Thank you so much.

Yeah, thank you for your time. I think these are very important issues to think about collectively.

That’s where we’re going, for sure.

I think the Swiss model of a longer deliberation before each referendum, even though it does cause fatigue, it also creates a better polity, a sense of polity.

Universal basic income.

Universal basic income?

Bodies.

If anything, it makes the tribalism more mutually reinforcing than anything.

I think basically makes it less like the four tribes within Switzerland.

100-page referendum booklet, who reads that? [laughs]

I know, I know.

Yes. That’s where we’re going.

Exactly.

If we only limit the referendums to the only thing that people can express, then maybe we just get Brexit every few years. [laughs]

Very much so, very much so.

It will also encourage the best of people for the 15-years-old and the 65-years-old, who care about the same thing, to build intergenerational solidarity. Whereas if it’s just one vote every two years, there’s no time for them to build, and no topic at all to build something...

I think there is one way, is just to make sure that there’s multiple chance of meaningful participation. Basically, weaken the referendums and the votes every four years. These are still democratic institutions, but if people can participate daily on the budgets, on the petitions, on the regulations, and things ...

Yeah.

It is, that are exclusive.

Right, they’re empowered.

He petitioned that it should never be included as a referendum topic. We actually adopted that as well. The 15-years-old are really changing the world, at least in Taiwan. [laughs]

As a rule, referendum, just as you said, is going to count the majority of population, sometime to the detriment of the minority of the population. The human rights covenants are there to protect the minorities.

There is also a petition just recently. We met another 15-years-old, a guy in, again, senior high school that petitioned for the referendum act to be changed so that we cannot take away human right, as agreed by the human right covenants in the UN.

She said that it’s her civic class assignment to find a petition topic that can mobilize people. I think it’s really good that they can meaningfully participate in this way, without having to stop from attending class every Friday, which is happening elsewhere, [laughs] and effecting real change.

When the EPA initially thought the petitioner must be a very strong environmental activist to gather 5,000 people in such a short time. When we meet her, she is just a 15-years-old senior high school student.

We have a 15-years-old that petitioned for banning of plastic straws or any one-use plastic anywhere. The EPA is forced to respond. They are actually delivering. This year, they are just banning plastic straw for indoor drinks.

In Taiwan, maybe not. The 15-years-old in Taiwan are very powerful in their campaigns. Actually, the most powerful e-petitions we receive that had an impact, most of them are from 15-years-old.

Caters to the elderly.

That’s right.

That’s right.

We have our e-participation website. I maybe talked about it, but it’s 5 million user out of 23 million population, one quarter. We see two spikes in participation. One is 15-years-old, another is around 65. These two groups have the most time on their hands, and they think most about ...