Very much so. I think, as I mentioned, and also indigenous. It doesn’t have to be Eastern. It could be Western indigenous. Because I mean, Taoism or Shinto, for that matter, all started as indigenous spiritualities and then just formalized a little bit.

Kind of flipping the three points around. I’m not saying that you should flip those three points around, but that’s how it looks like in my mind.

I think that is one of the narrative that can only come out if we make the enlightened progress as our goal, and then extend intelligence as the kind of instrumental phase, the transition to reach that goal. Then digital agency, digital democracy, whatever is just a kind of supporting ...

Extended intelligence goes a step further, saying that it is actually the machines are just catalysts for the change within ourselves, within our society, and within our relationship to the planet. This catalyzing role of technological advancement is quite unique in the council’s narrative. I think this is where it ...

Now that AI have much more autonomy, we’re hearing, "Oh, they must become assistive intelligence," in the sense that the learning needs to be, because they’re now placing in decision-making roles, they need to be subservient to people and the planet instead of become everything -- dictators and things like ...

There’s a very popular narrative called augmented intelligence and augmented collective intelligence. That is the driving metaphor at the moment. It’s augmenting like an eyeglass or a bicycle, like computers being bicycles of the mind and things like that. That’s fine.

Even within the council itself, of course, there’s different metaphors. What I like about the XI idea is that even though it’s harder to explain, to be honest, but it’s better than...

I’m very happy to connect you with people who would be interested in if you’re going to have this spirituality and culture as the driving narrative of AI and not just primitive animism. They write it in a way to catalyze a systemic spiritual change. This is something that I’m ...

This is not a product. This is a facilitative methodology. They translate it to traditional Chinese to get trained in Japan, and then is now offering such workshops. I actually played a workshop and livestreamed it to increase its impact. Not just Theory of U, but this whole SDG system ...

It just lifts the group out of the collective reflection by providing a coherent vision based on the triple bottom line so that people can go on to upward part of the Theory of U.

For example, there’s a Japanese table game called 2030 SDGs Game that uses card games to make sure that people understand the idea of triple bottom line but, more importantly, to transform people’s idea of individual gains into things that are not against individual gains but are more part of ...

The traditional Chinese version of Theory of U is translated and published. I’m actually just spreading [laughs] this around. They really make a very dynamic use.

I’m very well-connected to Impact Hub Taipei, which has been hosting the CP Yen Foundation. The foundation in Taiwan has been around for forever, pushing facilitation methodologies and transformative theory. They give their Dialogue Impact Award based on actually Theory of U thinking.

I think the Theory of U and other similar theories has been really influential in helping my work. I think it’s great that we can give back to scale out the impact of such thinking even further.

The challenge is always not just to frame them as prerequisite conditions in order for system change to happen, but actually giving now the narrative of how system change can feedback back into the kind of awakening or consciousness.

I chose group three, mostly because that connects with my day job the most. I’m also previously very interested in Tibetan Buddhism and the cognitive sciences based on a fusion between like Taoism, Zen practice, psychoanalysis, and just more reflective my spiritual personal growth.

There’s quite a few people that I’m already reasonably familiar with. I think it’s a good bunch of people to bring in. Like Sarah Spiekermann was also in the Vatican conference, so that’s how we were connected.

We’re very quickly seeking GDPR adequacy. In that environment, you really need Alex’s word of thinking in order to make sure that we can deliver the social benefits without compromising individual privacy and so on.

He’s supervised projects like self-driving tricycles and so on. Totally fit our vision and we’ve been deploying open algorithm because Taiwan has a privacy law that is European.

But actually, I do have quite a few friends already in the council. For example, the Open Algorithm Project, the OPAL project — Alex "Sandy" Pentland was a part of our World Congress on IT. He did visit and we did have a really good long chat.

He introduced me to Konstantinos Karachalios. Basically, I joined through John.

This is actually a very different direction, because in many other paradigms, it’s the machine code determines the policy of regulations that determines the social norm. You saw it’s a very interesting philosophy that I’ve been turning this around.

The other thing that I emphasize is that we co-create the AI norms before we turn them into regulatory experiments like sandboxes. Then after that, we turn them into parameters in a machine code.

I gave my talk and get connected to the cohort of people who care about these issues. In particular, John Havens was also in that meeting. Then John took a interest in exactly what you said in having radical transparency as kind of an enabler of creating digital twins of ...

I was in Vatican, where there was a meeting on the future of AI and participatory democracy and so on, organized by Jeffrey Sachs.

I’m very happy to see in the participatory design that the third agenda has been changed into this holistic, multi-level thinking, rather than this anti-GDP narrative, which would be a little bit militant and actually not very practical.

I think the pivot from criticizing GDP, which is not exactly very helpful -- GDP is actually 1 of the 169 SDG targets to lift people out of poverty, so it’s useful to that degree, but only to that degree, if you know what I mean. I think put GDP ...

This would actually much better connect people in the social sector such as the co-ops and nonprofits as well as people in the private sector, because then they speak the same language based on the sustainable progress.

It really resonates with me that if we make each county or town make their own sustainable goal, targets, for their locality and for the municipal government to include them into their voluntary local reviews and other measurement devices, and then for the national level to take approach instead of ...

Because my main mandate in Taiwan here, because I’m in charge of open government and of social innovation, the enlightened indicators for sustainable human progress in holistically different levels and in a way that is measuring the impact, not the outcome, of policies -- that actually is my main work ...

Actually, I think the Council’s three main directions -- because I’ve been attending the calls and also following the Google Doc collaborations -- I think it’s really moving toward a direction where it’s very close to my mandate.

That’s right.

No problem. You know that we’ll be on the record, but I will refrain from publishing the video if you’re not comfortable with it. We can publish the transcript, instead. We can decide that after the conversation.

Yeah, it’s fine. Actually, I can see you just fine.

It’s fine.

Thank you.

We’ll be in touch.

They would learn something about the climate every day, not just on Friday in strikes. [laughs]

Very much so.

That’s great.

Excellent. You’re still continuing that...

They are government sponsored anyway, and so basically just roll it out. It’s really popular with the families, and so on. Many of the families with them buy some more units from Edimax, which thankfully is a business model. That has been the replicated in other municipalities. Maybe the education ...

Unless you really own something that constantly produce data, this whole GDPR thing makes no sense to students. Once you’re a data operator, all of this would start to click, like the studies of the data steward becomes part of the education. The education sector loves it.

They do this by introducing it as an education tool. They are not talking to economic development or to land use planning because they know that there will be pushbacks. The primary school teachers and junior high school teachers, they love this kind of tech kits that teaches data stewardship.

I know. I think the first municipality that introduced in Taiwan Airbox using public budget is the Taipei Project Management Office of Smart City. They did it in a very smart way. They’re actually here in TechSauce too.

Then you don’t have to do any mesh building for that kind of PR. [laughs] That will pave the way to more in-depth partnership, where it could be the supply chain side. It could also be a deployment side, and we’re all very happy to help.

If your algorithms can somehow have a demo and running in our super-computing cluster to show that for some cases it’s actually better than other prediction models and things like that, I think that will win you goodwill from the entire community across sectors. We really...

Yes.

Very much so.

Exactly, something’s happening.