First of all, I don’t think they have really proven it to other even authoritarian countries. That model is -- for all the language of exportable -- we don’t see a very clear export success story, yet.

It also allows the Mozilla people to work with Secure Scuttlebutt, which is another distributed social media thing. g0v runs a Mastodon instance.

I don’t know. The core allows for possibilities. We see new efforts, like Tim Berners-Lee is from the core, reinventing social media. He is now with a startup called Inrupt, and working on Solid, which is the decentralized social thing. That’s Tim Berners-Lee.

Mm-hmm.

I think the Internet Society is at a place now that is more sovereign than any point previously.

UN itself is becoming more and more multi-stakeholder and hybrid anyway. After Snowden, the only link with the ministry of the economy of the US gets broken. The Internet Society does not having to respond to the US government anymore. Even the ceremonial link has been broken.

Yeah, but on the upper layers. In the core layer, it only became more sovereign as times go. Like after the ITU -- the UN ITU -- tried to absorb the Internet governance, they just made a coalition, the UN Internet Governance Forum, which makes it clear that we’re still ...

I read them. There’s an Internet library called "An Anarchist FAQ" — frequently asked questions. It summarizes and links to all the anarchist writings.

Yes. Bakunin and friends. But also Lao-Tzu and Chuang Tzu, let’s not forget the Eastern tradition.

There’s an essay called "Anarchism Triumphant" that connects the old anarchist ideas with the new Internet governance ideas.

This is very magical to a young child. When I was 12, I took a lot of time to learn about Internet governance. There’s many theorists and essayists at the time, chief among them, the Free Software Foundation, Eben Moglen is the one deliberately making the connection.

When I discovered the Internet, I discovered that it doesn’t report to any government body. It’s sovereign in a sense, but it doesn’t have an army or navy, but it somehow managed to get everybody on board with only a process called request for comments.

It’s deliberately built in a very ecofriendly way, and before learning about deep ecology or any of those very heady names and I already lived in that community since when I was 10 years old.

That’s right. What I want to mention is that there’s a lot dogs and cats in Garden City that the community co-live together. They don’t belong to anyone. It’s just people maintaining a stable relationship with the dogs and cats, just as with the other people, like... I say "people", ...

It’s older than me. I don’t know precisely, but I think it’s in the ’70s.

It’s in Xindian City, in New Taipei City. Many social reformers, anarchists and artists live there. It’s like a commune — they even issued its own community currency.

In any case, the Garden City, the slogan is that "it’s not a garden in your house, it’s your house in the garden." It’s a large place.

Well, I call it a dormitory. It’s a building where all the vice ministers and ministers live, so yeah, dormitory.

I think we adopted two dogs when I was 10. That was my first relationship. At the time, we were living in the Garden City, which is also where I officially live now. It’s just that I’m mostly working in the cabinet’s dormitory now. In Garden City, the slogan is...

Yeah...

Of course. Yeah.

Basically, my parents took me away and placed me alongside 18 years old, and they feel much more at home with me.

There’s a lot of anxiety around that.

All those makes the children feel that there is a non-child among the children.

That’s also because their parents are status pressured. That’s also because the social atmosphere at the time was like that. It’s a result of those because I’m like, I don’t know, get chosen as the head of the class, consistently took the top place in exam and while not actually ...

I don’t know. I was enrolled for the first year in a gifted class and the individuals there were pretty competitive on the individual basis. I have no idea why people want to compete against each other.

Yeah.

When you write poetry, of course, there’s a lot of isolation, but a poet that doesn’t share is a very bad poet and don’t get remembered. There’s the writing point. There’s the performative point.

Yeah, of course.

Working on computer language is also a lot like that, because it has to embed an entire thought process, a culture of people seeing the world as functions, as relations, as objects, as the anthology of the worldviews. They have to work with people with different worldviews and make their ...

The thing about Goethe is that there’s layers upon layers, upon layers of culture. It’s like a microcosm of culture embedded in those poems. It’s not quite "Finnegans Wake," which is its own thing, but it’s some of it like fractal-like nature, that the more you read into it, the ...

No. [laughs]

I don’t know, eight years old, something like that. Around the same time as I learned programming.

That’s exactly right. That’s, by the way, part of my very early reading, when I was it...

[laughs] Well, collaboratively. There’s the Perl 6 language.

It has to rhyme. It has to agree with syntactic, grammatical categories or the metaphors must connect, otherwise it doesn’t compile. The end of it is something larger than the individual stanzas. It conveys a worldview.

Yeah. I learned very early on that has logic as its notes and the possibility of interaction it’s its melody, so it’s something that I can share, but not personally. When you write a program, it’s like writing a poem, especially a long large system, such as writing the "Faust." ...

Programming is something that I just saw it as a musical instrument.

They were all very supportive. When I was eight and I started writing programs on a paper, and they relented and bought me a present, a computer. They, very early on, learned typing and used computers for their line of work and things like that, but not programming.

Yes.

They were both journalists.

He shielded them from the social repercussions just by having liberals and democrats working in his newspaper. That was a relative safe zone for them to voice their opinions.

I think they were protected by a relative liberal employer, Mr. 余紀忠 from the "China Times." He was, of course, part of the KMT, but of the more liberal branch of the KMT.

My mom was part of the homemakers union, I think one of the cofounders, which would later become one of the largest co-ops, so also a part of co-op movement.

That’s right. My parents and my extended family, they worked, even before the martial law gets lifted, for example the right of the environment, against environmental pollution. They were also early advocates of education reform.

When I was four years old.

Sure. Yeah, I quitted school just so I can start some entrepreneurship work and co-found a company.

Yes.

Yeah, I started coding when I was eight.

That’s right.