Always great questions, thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Yeah, I know.

We will soon have a policy around that and also a public consultation just like we did on the opening up mountains. I think some of these questions, you can bring to our joint platform and we will happily do a multi-stakeholder conversation around those two.

That translates in the sea in the ocean context as, no marine debris or no over fishing or just sustainability in general. I think the more people who care about these, the less abuse we will see. How do we get more people care about this? Well, you do not ...

…but it is a issue. I’m actually working with the new Council of Ocean Affairs, the COA on the new ocean policies. Just like the opening up the mountain policy, which we worked on last year. The idea, again, is using technology to empower people who wants to build a ...

[laughs] We can schedule another hour to talk about this.

…the flag of convenience or something.

That’s an area that we’re looking to invest a lot, not just on the coronavirus hackathon, but the presidential hackathon.

Again, where the old generation of big data analytics basically makes a false dichotomy between over collection of data and over protection of personal data, to the detriment social good. Now, we have a new set of technology that again, can build a new axis out of those two seemingly ...

Even do as the judge, it’s very much aligned with using the latest in federated learning and fully homomorphic encryption in all those new tools that basically allows for a statistical overview of things with our compromising any individual’s privacy.

I’m basically quite optimistic when it comes to privacy enhancing technologies. Pretty much all, may not be not all, a majority of the cohack winners, of the coronavirus hackathon winners are privacy enhancing technology in one way or another. Something quite advanced the AI labs, for example, who was part ...

It’s actually possible — and it’s based on the same principle as the Bluetooth contact tracing app.

We’re working on those technologies and there’s also being on the public record. Many international NGOs were concerned of what’s the humanitarian side, trying to figure out a way to improve accountability without for example, revealing their trade secret of where has the most fish, this time it’s real fish. ...

…may do something fishy, and that doesn’t involve fish. It’s happening.

Yup, and because of the IUU there’s been reformed measures of servers, and so on. I think there’s plenty of ways where technologies can help. For example, technologies can help sharing the vehicles whereabouts, and when they’re going to move too closely when they should not be moving that close.

Yeah. It’s a real topic.

Yes.

Yeah, from tournament play.

They’re talking about that because the “Magic: The Gathering - Wizards of the Coast” bond that their earliest cards that refer to racial injustice and prejudices.

Even my old friends circle of “Magic: The Gathering” players.

Sure.

Yeah, we’re about time.

Yeah. At least I think since the Umbrella, and definitely during the anti-ELAB, Taiwan served as a safe harbor for international journalists to meet with those protesters and for them to have a voice to run the, for example, Oslo Freedom Forum, to run many platforms, actually, for them to ...

Many of them did visit me. It’s on public record.

I think there’s definitely in a more humanitarian flavor of the debate.

Yeah. I think if it’s humanitarian, then there’s much more social consensus. If this is any other scenario, it would not be that easy. It would be a very prolonged debate, but because there is an emergency, almost like a countdown timer now.

Yeah. This is a humanitarian situation.

But if you do not have the speech freedom, the journalistic freedom, even the most well-intentioned authoritarian ruler will have no way to actually know what’s happening on the ground. I still think that our way is better, but history will tell.

We would probably see it plays out in different norms, but I’m not saying that our amplification is particularly the only or unique solution. I do think that this offers the most potential to resilience of different future models if you have biodiversity in the ideas space. Then when new ...

Some of the Tiananmen organizers eventually became professors that taught students that occupy the parliament in Taiwan. You never know, [laughs] but there is a long strand of history. The pandemic serve as the amplifier in Taiwan for social sector in many places, as you’ve said, on state’s capabilities and ...

Fall of the Berlin wall may or may not be influenced by the Beijing protest in Tiananmen, same as our Wild Lily movement, which actually is directly non-violent, also from a state level, because people do not want to repeat the Tiananmen incident.

Many of them think that maybe in their generation, they will not see the change that they initially hoped for when they organized that demonstration. You can also see a rippling effect. For example, the fall of the Berlin wall may or may not be the peaceful…

Yeah. My dad did his PhD in Saarbrucken University in Germany on the aftermath of the Tiananmen protest. Many of his research subject interviewees were people who fled Beijing and continued their undergrad work or graduate level work in France and Germany. I grew up with these exiles, as they ...

The permanent or at least semi-permanent.

Just be the change you want to see in the world, and maybe people will see your demonstration as something to be inspired, as the Sunflower Movement eventually did.

If you believe that communal oversight, and neighborhood watches, and SMS that sends to the neighborhood wardens can largely replace a heavy handed police, you can actually code it up. It’s not rocket science.

I have seen demonstrations before. My advice to demonstrators, no matter where they are, is always that turn the demonstration into a demo, into basically be the change you want to see in the world. That still rings true today in the sense that if you believe in that deliberative ...

Yeah.

This flips it around by the social sector doing the prototype first and the private sector scaling it out, and then the public sector doing the absolutely minimum necessary to make that happen, not get in the way. Because of that, a procurement would take 48 days for things like ...

Then once that happens, the public sector is pressured to give out real-time API so maps like that could function. This is the reversal, the flip of the traditional public-private-people, call it partnership model, where it starts from the state, getting maybe captured by the private sector and the social ...

In Taiwan, the social sector first determine, for example, the mask map prototype, that gains wide legitimacy, and then the private sector, like Google, actually, have to waive the API usage fee, because otherwise, they will be seen as maybe the bad blood.

Why Taiwan sounds almost too idealistic, it’s because we reject that binary, linear thinking. We see it more like two axes. On one axis is the state’s capability to trust its people on social innovation, and the other axis is the economic sector like the so-called national mask production team, ...

Or the other side where it’s a market-driven, even capitalistic social order and government outsources most of its work to the private sector and therefore cannot mobilize freely. It seems like a zero-sum spectrum that you have to move to the left or to the right and so on.

That’s one of this binary thinking like it’s either a large state, and authoritarian, and small market, and all the large enterprise become state owned. That’s one side of it.

These are quite different because the one you’ve cited about approval rating, about protesters, that’s entirely domestic. It’s organic. It’s natural tension between the centralized government and the civil society, whereas the external threat that threatened to take over entire elections does something else altogether. Because if the election gets ...

That was never our goal to instate penalties in order to control the societal order. Even the most harsh people did that specifically to counter state-based propaganda. That’s the often-cited goal, and de facto foreign-state controlled media as well.

And the judicial precedents draw the line quite firmly.

It’s a chivalrous thing. I’m not a journalist. I cannot say that.