Thank you. Bye.

Will be my honor to watch it.

Thank you. Let’s work on this together. Live long and prosper.

That’s excellent. Permission is hereby given. [laughs] I’ll paste you the YouTube link. I’ll put Creative Commons on it. Just do whatever. Yes.

If you publish the video later on, then I publish a video on my site with my image, but also your voice.

Everything, but [laughs] this is the beginning of a conversation. For the record, for the transparent record, we’ll make a transcript and feel free to co-edit for 10 days, and then we publish. I understand that my nonverbal expressions, you want to publish on a later date, which is fine. ...

Not a global organization of the big corporations that wants to set the norm through code or through data. We want the people who set the norms locally, and then amplify those norms so that we can produce code and data that is a service of those norms.

There are people who are working on the protocols and so on to protect the anonymity of the journalistic sources. Indeed, the communication of journalists themselves. Then enable the people whose voice was either taken away, or not yet taken care of by the Internet community, and connect them to ...

The community leaders that give them voice, that unmute themselves, that shares the voice, that is enabled by the Internet. I’m thinking of the peer-to-peer networks that has started as grassroots in communication, especially in disaster areas. Also in places suffering censorship, because the Internet become a censorship tool by ...

The Internet community, that’s my first and foremost inspiration, the early Internet pioneers. Nowadays, all the people who are connected to the Internet. Also inspired by people who are not yet connected to the Internet, whose voice are not yet heard.

We also want this curational oversight by our democratically elected panels on how the cultures are being misrepresented or represented on the Wikipedia community and so on, a, more frankly relationship. I call this a people-public-private partnership. The people sets the agenda, the norm. The public sector amplify it. The ...

We must also embrace the OpenAPI, open source, open data ethics so when the social sector can do better, we can take a step back and say, “OK, now the Wikipedia community runs our public library better. Maybe we don’t bother running a state-sponsored public library.”

That brings me to my second point. In addition to identifying the dark patterns and do social sanction, just stop using those patterns, calling that out, boycotting them, we also need pro-social alternatives that is maintained by the pro-social, purpose-oriented communities, the social innovators. The state may prototype some of ...

Which is why the city governments invest in places like town halls or public libraries, museums, parks, and so on, those public infrastructures that is worth people’s investment to maintain exactly because we want pro-social social conversations around social issues in those places.

If a mayor [laughs] say, “Oh, let’s have a town hall. Let’s have a conversation to set the social expectation or a new development instead. When on how to be more inclusive.” Then they choose the local nightclub as the place to have a deliberation. You won’t have a deliberation. ...

Addictive drinks being served. Private bouncers escorting you out. All these are the norm of the entertainment sector within that particular nightclub. Maybe with some gambling on the side, but we don’t do our town halls in those places.

I often compare, and I’ll just call out Facebook as a nightclub, where of course, people can be social in nightclub, but they have to shout to be heard as very loud noise fill the room. Actually, smoke fill the room. Too addictive smoke and that.

Some ethics like that in the business model that those companies do need to be identified as socially acceptable patterns and socially unacceptable patterns need to be identified as such as dark patterns, then treat it exactly the same way that we treat other addictive substances.

People pay for the service or product upfront, and then whatever, face ID or things that you give to the device they are on the device is supposed to be personal computer as in personal to you. Of course, I’ve not worked with Apple for many years. I don’t know. ...

I don’t think Siri does that, but I am not working for Apple anymore, so I don’t know. [laughs] During the time that I worked with Apple, one of the things that we don’t do is things like this.

There’s two things going on here. One is – as you said – surveillance capitalism. There are large companies whose only business model is to sell the attention of their users to the highest bidder, and they want to turn their users into users in the drug industry sense, addicts. ...

This is a wider phenomenon that we’re seeing around the world that it’s not this or that. This is this and that. I believe gender is just one of the dimensions that these more inclusive ideas can take hold.

There’s also people in Japan that remix our interviews. Like this one was a journalist into rap songs and things like that. [laughs] One can be nonbinary, not just in gender, but in the kind of work that you do. Whenever people stereotype as someone who worked for the government ...

Nowadays, in democratic countries, people are looking for politicians that interacts with them in real-time so that their ideas can amplify through this politician. I call myself a “poetician” because I take good ideas then write poems about it and contribute to the art world by relinquishing my copyrights into ...

What I’m trying to say is that around the world, we’re seeing people embracing a different kind of doing politics instead of politicians being someone who is at a distance from the people. The traditional ideas of leadership across radio, television, and persona.

That’s my intersectional view. I’m sure that when Minister Chen Shih-chung put on the pink mask he became a little bit more transgender. He defied the mainstreaming stereotypes. I think this is not a binary thing. This nonbinary thing is not itself binary. It’s not you’re binary or nonbinary. Everybody ...

…open about it.

I always say I’m the first openly transgender minister because, for all we know, everybody else may be transgender too, except they’re not…

Yes, all the social innovators as defined by people innovating to a public good, conforming to the global goals is eligible.

That’s right, but it needs to fit one of the sustainable development goals. That is to say, it needs to be a public good. If they come and say that they want me to lend them some money or something. [laughs] Like purely personal requests, that wouldn’t work.

Instead of democracy backsliding, all you need is more democracy.

The difference is that the Beijing regime and the Shanghai Government shut those websites down. They would not allow the civic technologists to gain legitimacy through this kind of democratic self-help assembly. That’s the crucial difference.

The thing is that there are civic technologists in Shanghai. They have some of the most brilliant Internet entrepreneurs. Some of them did help. Some of them did create the dashboards for people to help each other. To visualize the rationing of goods. Exactly as the Taiwanese people did in ...

Then we say, “Yeah, we amplify those very good ideas and trusting your citizens pay dividends in situations like the Coronavirus where the experts in the government could not possibly catch up as quickly as the virus mutation.”

People who care that this must never be used for advertisement or criminal investigation. It’s designed with democracy baked in, is not bolted on. When the democracy technologists design such systems, the state take a step back.

Here in Taiwan is built by g0v, G-0-V, the civic technologist that design with privacy, with care, with caring about people who don’t use a smartphone, people who don’t use a phone at all. People who care about how they want to reverse audits, the contact tracer accessing their records ...

They see their new ways of visualizing mask distribution, of visualizing vaccine distribution, of reminding each other to wear a mask of contact tracing. All these essential services, which in other jurisdictions are either built by the government’s technology units, or by Google and Apple, and then translated by the ...

To refrain from doing the top-down, shut down, takedowns lockdowns. The first time you do such a top-down lockdown thing, it decimates. You reduce by 10 percent the agency of the people, and then people would not want to think of new measures when they know those measures may be ...

Yeah, of course. [clears throat]

It’s not just a way to signal that you protect your own mouth against your own unwashed hands, which is very practical. After that, people wear intentionally rainbow mask or whatever mask as a sign of expression. That undoubtedly fought off the original strain, the 2020 strain of the Coronavirus.

Minister Chen he even said that Pink Panther was his childhood hero. Pink became the color of heroes, [laughs] and heroes, heroes, I guess. Then all the fashion brands, turned pink, [laughs] for quite a few weeks. Then after that, the mask adoption rate skyrocketed, because suddenly mask become a ...

Who listened to the young boy who said, “You’re rationing out mask which is great, but all the boys in my class got blue ones, but I got pink ones. I don’t want to wear pink to school. I don’t want to wear a mask now. I’ll do something about ...

You have to rely on 10-year-old boy [laughs] that called this toll free number 1922 and met with someone full of empathy at the call center, staffed by the very charities that help people on the earthquakes and so on.

The main reason why is that, we trust the citizens. The citizens come up with good ideas. Then we amplify those ideas, is not anything top down. In the COVID, virus mutates so quickly. There is no expert panel that can catch up. You have to rely on the collective ...

So far in the country of 24 million, there’s less than 1,000 people died of COVID. We’ve never had a single day of lockdown. The economy has prospered during the COVID. Actually, the only one [laughs] around our region that prospered in all these years. That probably counts as success.

In-laws as in father-in-law, mother-in-law, we didn’t legalize that. We legalized the bylaws without touching the in-laws. Then the conservative people who are after all respecting their lineage, the in-law relationship, I wouldn’t say they’re happy, but they lived with it. They can live with it. That’s how we get ...

Paradoxically, it made this new relationship preferable, if you look at the burdens [laughs] that you have to care for the other side’s parents. It’s equal rights, slightly better privilege [laughs] for this kind of new relationships. That’s why we said, “We have legalized marriage equality.” The bylaws are exactly ...

When they are wed this way, their families don’t. Unlike the civil code where the kinship relationship is formed through the heterosexual marriage lineage, this new relationship does not carry this kinship connotation.

I’m like, when Taiwan passed marriage equality, we didn’t redefine the civil code or reinterpret through constitutional interpretation, the way that many jurisdiction did. We invented a new relationship. Then this new relationship is a wedding between two homosexual individuals, or people who identify as such or whatever.

They project this insecurity into acting out, [laughs] and then create a more and more violence conversation around such matters. The thing is, I take all the sides, so I also take their side.