Thank you. Bye.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate this, and I look forward to to being in touch.

I guess, everything will be in the transcript, but if I have any questions I will follow up.

Amazing. It’s such an honor to talk to you. There’s so many great things. I love the way that you use humor, and you’re so good at boiling things down into amazing lessons and everything. I think it is awesome. I really appreciate this.

That goes back to what you said before about code making, like creating code together. I think that’s really, really good. It’s so amazing. Is there anything we haven’t gone over that you want to touch on?

Amazing. Thank you. During the pandemic, a lot of people have been talking to you and trying to get lessons from you. Looking around the world — I’m from London — I’m wondering whether you had any more specific advice for London or for America about what you wish you’d ...

Is there some things that the government should be doing, like creating horizontal ministers like yourself when your job is really building bridges? Do you see common bureaucratic like things slowing that speed of democracy down?

Is there a major so that…It’s going back to what you said at the beginning. You need to create space for people to participate anywhere that’s great speed. It’s not every four years. It’s every day. Slowing everything down are just like all these bureaucratic things. You have to go ...

To combat that declining of trust, you need to, first of all, get rid of the apathy. It’s a massive challenge. To fix it, is it getting people involved, making people feel rooted, feeling like they have a duty?

When you look at the next 10 years, what do you think the major challenges are the world needs to face?

If you write an article that is very nuanced, you get the clicks from a headline that’s very much, “This person’s bad. This person’s good.” How do we change that incentive structure to encourage more nuance and less binary thinking?

Right now, the incentive structure, whether you’re writing an article or whether you’re running for president or something, is to be on one side or the other.

You’ve talked a little bit about how transitioning helps you see different sides of…Do you think that transition helped change your leadership style? You’ve also talked about your heart is helping to shape how you look at leadership. Would you mind talking a little bit about that?

Again, those are traits that I feel like women are socialized to think about other people and to be kinder. Then a lot of the traditional advice to women is that that’s weakness. Go against that. Now, it feels like we’re shifting that.

Yeah. I think that was the Trump riot. The fact that he was so callous was a big factor in his being removed. We’re seeing this shift towards embracing vulnerability and empathy. Hopefully, it will continue.

The behavior change, I don’t think there’s ever been anything like it. The pandemic, do you think it’s also changed how we look at leadership and the things that we value with that?

That’s such a great point. In New York, it’s just been so funny that this time last year, nobody was wearing masks. Now, whenever you step aside, everyone’s wearing masks.

When it comes to things like climate crisis, how do you think that co creation can help to address something so huge and pervasive? I feel like at the moment, we’ve got people like Bill Gates talking about how we need to be investing in super technology to fix it ...

That gets them more invested in things like climate change and learning the facts for themselves.

I was really interested to read about what you were doing with the school curriculum as well, trying redesign that with the same ethos. Could you explain that a little bit?

I know. We’re only just now in America saying, “Oh, everyone should have broadband.” It’s funny. I live in New York City. I have basically two options for broadband, two big monopolies. It costs so much money. America has some of the highest broadband costs in the world. I feel ...

We can’t use technology to create a fairer society unless we have equal access to technology.

You’ve talked about before every day, anyone can call the CECC to talk about what their idea is, and this one boy talked about having to wear a pink mask. Technology doesn’t have to be high tech. I’m saying are there other ways to participate? Do you think there aren’t…?

It’s interesting because vTaiwan is an example of a pretty high tech solution of the rough consensus. I like what you’re talking about with…like picking up a phone to call and give your ideas about the pandemic, the central phone number.

That’s vTaiwan? You’re talking about that platform where you’re creating the rough consensus?

We the People, but then afterwards, it feels like he left that behind when he started governing, and then people couldn’t be engaged. Is it about finding a way to create those spaces where people participate? Is it is that the first step in that creation?

How would you see that being replicated in America? I feel like with Obama, when Obama first campaigned, he had, back in 2008, this groundbreaking like a new digital platform which allowed people to participate in the campaign. I think he got a lot of people moving away from that ...

Thank you. Sorry. I…very well. I know everybody always asks you this. [laughs]

I didn’t see it.

Sorry. Where did you paste it?

I’ve read all about the Sunflower Movement. I’m not an expert in understanding how that shifted trust in Taiwan. Could you help me sum up how the Sunflower Movement changed…?

It’s the speed with which you managed to get that mask done. There was several years of work behind that, in terms of getting that trust built and getting the processes. Can you tell us, Minister, about that?

You see so many great ideas from people about how things can be improved. How do you go about doing what you’ve done in Taiwan, where you managed to surface these great ideas that people are having and put it into the official response?

I feel like if this had happened in Taiwan, we need someone like you who could have helped this guy take it to the next level, rather than OK, we’ve got this concerned citizen who’s doing something, but the government is just going to say welcome but not get involved.

There’s this guy…What’s his name? He goes by the name TurboVax. I don’t know if you’ve read about him. His name is Huge Ma. With $50, he came up with this brilliant solution. He’s a 31 year old New York based software engineer. He built a bot called TurboVax that ...

We’re doing well with vaccinations, but the computer systems are a complete nightmare. Some things are here. Some things are there. It took me three hours of trying, clicking, clicking, clicking, to try and find a vaccine appointment.

One of the things I was thinking of putting in the book is the mask map that you very quickly took from someone’s idea to… and made it much bigger. An interesting contrast to that is I’m based in New York. Right now, we’ve just opened up the vaccination.

I have to talk to you about your approach creating a more participatory democracy and the lessons that can be learned from it.

Throughout the pandemic, we’ve seen how a more feminine leadership…I’m not saying feminine as in women, but the sort of skills that women have been socialized to have often, like collaboration and cooperating, etc., things Taiwan has totally excelled at.

In order to overcome all the challenges of the world is facing, we need a new style of leadership. Right now, our model of leadership is very masculine, very authoritarian.