Thank you all for listening. As usual, please leave a rating or a comment on how to make the podcast better or if there’s any guests or any stories that you’d like to hear in the future. Until next time, let’s make it open.

This is something right out of “The Matrix,” the way you say it. [laughs] It’s wonderful. I want to thank you so much for giving so much of your time for these podcast episodes, Audrey. Is there anything that you want to say before we go?

Yeah, by all means. Yeah, go for it.

There is one thing I need to ask you about before you go, which is you use the term virus of the mind quite a bit in many of your writings and your presentations. I love how you talk about it. Much like how we ended it with a poem, ...

I love how you place that. Obviously, identity politics, especially in the West, has run rampant over the last few years. We only have about four minutes left before our time is up.

Are most of these dimensions politically motivated among the traditional spectrum of, say, liberal versus conservative, or have you found much more nuanced aspects of dimensions?

In the spirit of Reddit, explain like I’m five how this algorithm works in finding commonalities in feelings and action and policies.

He’s going to appreciate the callout, I’m sure. He actually helped me quite a bit in preparing for this interview. One of the things that he was mentioning is we were talking about the algorithm that’s used by vTaiwan and Polis in creating this map, this report.

This is a question for a common friend, Derek Alton.

[laughs]

…is a government website, but no one ever goes there in Canada unless you’re…

What I mean more is, is it become ubiquitous in the nation. Has it become part of the language? Is it part of the culture, or is there still a bit of an adoption tipping point that you’re waiting for?

How’s it been received by Taiwanese?

[laughs]

I’m an avid user of Reddit. I’m a huge fan of Reddit and what it represents. Maybe you have a better way of describing it. It’s almost as though you created a better Reddit. Am I wrong in thinking that way? You said yourself you’re trying to avoid the trolls, ...

It’s a fascinating approach because a lot of times, like you’re suggesting, feelings come afterwards. That’s where the debate happens, whether it’s through an election or a pundit on TV, which is putting the cart in front of the horses a lot of the times.

Now, I want to move on to some of the more technical work you’ve been doing as Minister for Digital Government of Taiwan. vTaiwan, you mentioned earlier. A tool that you used I think to help create vTaiwan is something called Polis. Why don’t you take a few moments here ...

Have other of your minister counterparts followed your lead when it comes to either one of those three?

For example, if you have a ministers meeting with your colleagues, they’re all on board with this radical transparency. There’s nothing from the meeting that’s not going to be recorded. You’re going to go through the process that you have outlined. You’re going to publish accordingly.

And it sounds as though, based on your answers, that the leadership…

Like For example, procurement. Procurement details in a contract, it’s not a classified matter. How are you able to share that or balance the need for transparency on something like that with the needs of the government’s requirement for…I’m going to say secrecy because I can’t think of a better ...

There’s a lot of, for example, in traditional governments in Western countries, just basic team meetings that are not necessarily made public, that even if you were to make an FOI request, which is not necessarily classified information, you would come back with some resistance from the government or having ...

This is where personally, I want to have the same conversation but bringing down a notch away from classified documents.

[laughs]

You mentioned a moment ago about political risks. I would assume that with your radical transparency mandate as a value system that you bring to the government, how do you balance the needs of the political elements of the government with your value system of transparency? Because I’m assuming you ...

[laughs]

I’m talking about the career public service, the people that have been working in the bureaucracy in Taiwan for 20, 30 years, the old guard.

You’ve been in this post for about four or five years. At first, I can’t believe it was just puppy dogs and ice cream from the very beginning. There must have been some resistance to this concept.

It’s not in their job description. It’s not something they’re comfortable doing. Resistance from politicians. My question for you is, how was it welcomed in Taiwan when you were bringing in this drastic change?

You and I both know, as you’ve been describing, that in the 21st century, that’s changing quite a bit. We need the public service in the foreground just as much. In Canada and other parts in the Western governments, that has been faced with a lot of resistance because of ...

At least in Canada and I know in many Western governments, you describe the relationship between the bureaucracy and the elected officials eloquently, in that the public service is typically in the background. They’re not meant to be in the foreground because that’s the politician’s job.

So, in Part 1, when we were talking about how much civic values are very important for you and you were at the grassroots, now you’re part of the government all of a sudden. Talk about how either your mentality changed or perhaps your perception of government changed with this ...

And, I think the way it was written when I was doing my research is that you’re a minister without a portfolio. Am I wrong?

Now, you hold the post, currently, as Digital Minister for Taiwan, but you’re not an elected officer. You’re an appointed one.

[laughs] Not a big deal perhaps there, but here, it would be groundbreaking news in Canada at the very least. I want to talk about your relationship between yourself and the prime minister at the time. Did you guys already have a relationship? Did she know you just by reputation? ...

Let’s continue there, with the prime minister approaching you to become the digital minister. At this stage in your career, you’re officially retired, from my understanding.

OK, so it was just as simple as that. What happened afterwards then?

Was it really?

What was the straw that broke the camel’s back for this transformational change for the government? Did they just acquiesce? “It’s been 21 days. We’re not going to be able to fix this,” or was it…?

How long was the sit-in in total days?

With everything that’s going on in the world right now with Black Lives Matter, social discrimination especially in the West, there is a heavy presence of the police and the military. Is there a reason why the Taiwanese forces, we’ll call them, did not attack the protesters of the sit-in, ...

One of the things when I was learning a little bit more about the Sunflower Movement and saw the footage, you guys had furniture up against the doors. There was hundreds of people there. You guys had really coordinated areas for food and sleep and things of that nature. But, ...

Were you inside parliament during that time?

What was your personal involvement? From my understanding, you helped. You were not necessarily a lead organizer. Am I wrong in thinking this?

In part one, we left off with you reciting a beautiful poem that has deep meaning for you. Chronologically, we were about to discuss your role with the Sunflower Movement. That’s where we’re going to continue. First of all, tell us what is the Sunflower Movement?

To top it all off, even though she is currently the Digital Minister for Taiwan, she officially retired about five years ago. Hello, Audrey. Thanks for joining us again.

For those who didn’t get a chance to listen to part one, Audrey has a very rich international work history. Her influence ranges from coding to Silicon Valley startups, to research, and even grassroots activism that helped to transform her government. She was able to do all of this before ...

In part one, we discussed her journey as a civic organizer, beginning with how she dropped out of school at the age of 14 to start an IT company and concluded with her involvement with g0v.

Hello. Welcome to “Stories from the Open Gov,” a podcast dedicated to telling the stories about what open government and open data look like. My name is Richard Pietro. Today is part two of our interview with Audrey Tang. She is the digital minister for Taiwan.

Thank you, Audrey. I don’t think there’s any other way for me to close this episode and saying until next time, let’s make it open.